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Ms. Byte (Deceased)
Original Poster
#1 Old 13th Nov 2009 at 1:56 PM
Default Problem with adjusting bone weights
Since I had a day off Wednesday, I decided to take on fixing the bone weights in the afShirtTeeCrew mesh so it wouldn't distort with Delphy's breast size slider. Easy, right? WRONG.

Fixing the mesh vertex breast bone weights wasn't hard. (They're really strange in the game mesh, btw.) The fixed mesh looks great in CAS and in the game at the very high Sim detail video setting, but at any lower Sim detail setting the same old funkyness in the mesh comes back, as if my replacement wasn't even there. I tried making packages in s3pe, in Postal, and even a non-replacement using CTU. No dice. Also I fiddled with the lod2 mesh, which had no breast bone assignments at all, and that shows up fine when I zoom out at low detail.

Wes, if you see this, do you know if the bone weights are stored anywhere else besides in the mesh vertex values? Any ideas of what's going wrong?
Screenshots
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Scholar
#2 Old 13th Nov 2009 at 3:18 PM
There are a lot BOND items in FullBuild0 for every clothing and different fit/fatness states with strange bones, Delphys editor doesn't understand.

Maybe it has something to do with them. Just a guess.
Alchemist
#3 Old 13th Nov 2009 at 10:35 PM
This sounds like something really simple, perhaps embarrassingly so.

I often use a trick to help make sure I am editing the right mesh by pulling one vertex far out of place, into a spike, and making sure that shows up.

If you like to say what you think, be sure you know which to do first.
Sockpuppet
#4 Old 13th Nov 2009 at 11:01 PM
They should be stored elsewere not?
How else can you export and import a objective file withing TSR workshop?
Objective files don't have boneassignements...
Scholar
#5 Old 14th Nov 2009 at 3:26 PM
Base1980, TSR workshop now has a .wso format which can store vertex assignments

To the OP, like Wes, I have a feeling you made a simple mistake, as there should be no reason as to why the LOD2 mesh can not be successfully modified.
Ms. Byte (Deceased)
Original Poster
#6 Old 19th Nov 2009 at 2:19 AM
Okay, it never hurts to double check.

I modified the t-shirt meshes, making two spikes to the front in lod1, and a big spike to the back in lod2. The results are below. The first pic is in CAS, and you can see the area below the breasts is fine. The second is in the game with video options set to very high sim detail. Again, the shirt looks fine. The third is with video options set to low sim detail, and the blockiness below the breasts is back. The last is zoomed out to lod2 at low detail, and while it's a little hard to see, the breast size slider is working and the projection at the back is visible.

Note this was all using the exact same package.

Whatever is going on, it's not just a simple mistake on my part.
Screenshots
Alchemist
#7 Old 19th Nov 2009 at 6:37 AM
So on low detail, the lod1 mesh is still displaying, but with blocky breasts?
And lod2 is fine... not what I was expecting to see.

I am out of fresh ideas at the moment.

If you like to say what you think, be sure you know which to do first.
Ms. Byte (Deceased)
Original Poster
#8 Old 19th Nov 2009 at 12:17 PM
So am I, for the moment, except that it really looks like bone weights are stored somewhere else besides the vertex data.
Sockpuppet
#9 Old 19th Nov 2009 at 7:17 PM
Are the results the same without the slider hacks?(without being installed at all i mean, and on a new sim made?)
Did you delete the whole sims 3 folder before trying?(You must remove all saves as some of the data gets stored there also with a kinda conflict(the blocky breasts) as result)
I had this once with a custom bracelet that i installed, deleted the package and emptied all caches but it kept popping up....
Make a backup first

Or maybe a difrent skeleton is used on low detail?
Ms. Byte (Deceased)
Original Poster
#10 Old 20th Nov 2009 at 1:08 AM Last edited by CmarNYC : 20th Nov 2009 at 1:34 AM.
Quote: Originally posted by Base1980
Are the results the same without the slider hacks?(without being installed at all i mean, and on a new sim made?)
Did you delete the whole sims 3 folder before trying?(You must remove all saves as some of the data gets stored there also with a kinda conflict(the blocky breasts) as result)
I had this once with a custom bracelet that i installed, deleted the package and emptied all caches but it kept popping up....
Make a backup first

Or maybe a difrent skeleton is used on low detail?


Without the slider hacks there would be no distortion of the mesh, but that's the whole point - to get this mesh to work with Delphy's and/or Jonha's breast size sliders. The top distorts because the bone weights in the game mesh aren't right.

What do you mean by removing the whole Sims 3 folder? That would mean reinstalling the game, wouldn't it? I deleted all the cache package files between attempts. I'm sure it's possible there's some saved stuff in the games, but if people have to delete all their saved games to use this it's kinda not worth it.

Trying it on a new Sim in a new game is at least worth a try, though. Thanks!

Edit: Nope - new Sim, new game, still fine in CAS but blocky in the game.
Sockpuppet
#11 Old 20th Nov 2009 at 8:34 AM
It is possible to delete the whole sims 3 folder.
Not the installation folder but the one in documents and settings.
It does kinda reset the game, will create all from scratch once you reboot the game.
But others will have to do the same, yes...
Theorist
#12 Old 24th Nov 2009 at 9:41 PM Last edited by GnatGoSplat : 25th Nov 2009 at 12:26 AM.
I fixed this mesh about a month ago, but never tried it in low detail. I just now tried it, and looks like I have the same problem, but on top of the breasts instead of the bottom.
Screenshots

Resident wet blanket.
Ms. Byte (Deceased)
Original Poster
#13 Old 25th Nov 2009 at 12:15 PM
Interesting that it's different, but it looks like you may have the breasts adjusted lower and maybe fuller, which I think angles the bone and might make the problem appear different. You could try comparing with and without the corrected mesh at lower detail. If there's a difference (there's no difference with my correction) maybe that would provide a clue.

And thanks for confirming that it's not just me!
Theorist
#14 Old 25th Nov 2009 at 2:16 PM
Yes, I think you're probably right that the shape and offsets of the breasts has a lot to do with where the mesh will distort. My guess is that the bone assignment thresholds are slightly different. What I mean by that is a bone of a certain percentage assignment gets pulled into a slightly different location on one detail setting vs. the other. Perhaps it's possible to get a good compromise by tweaking some of the bone percentages, but that sounds like a lot of trial and error.

Resident wet blanket.
Alchemist
#15 Old 25th Nov 2009 at 4:40 PM
Thinking out loud here, I am speculating that the change is being done in the code that adjusts the mesh based on the sliders, but maybe it is one of the other sliders, like fat.

Base1980 can tell you that a perfectly good foot mesh with identical weights at the seam between the foot and the torso will not fit right unless you have the same VertexIDs on each vertex that the original had. There is definitely an interaction between the sliders and the vertices.

I am speculating that perhaps this is happening on these meshes, too. I don't know that the VertexID might be getting changed or lost when the reweighting is being done. Anyway, it is speculation, but it is all I can think of for now.

If you like to say what you think, be sure you know which to do first.
Sockpuppet
#16 Old 25th Nov 2009 at 5:35 PM
Im getting more curious every time i read a post inhere.
Ill try to fix it also and post my uh...findings?

But i think Wes is right and you should be able to fix the problem by making a new Bgeo for it.
Ms. Byte (Deceased)
Original Poster
#17 Old 25th Nov 2009 at 9:51 PM
It certainly is very curious!

The BGEOs don't have any bone information in them, just deltas for vertex position and normals, so new ones aren't going to be any different from the old ones since I didn't move any vertices and probably GnatGoSplat didn't either. It would be worth looking at whether the other game sliders are producing a distortion in this mesh, though. Thing is that the fat/fit/thin morphs seem to be mostly geom-based while the breast sliders are entirely bone-based - it's a different mechanism. Food for thought. Right now I'm deep in coding a new version of FaceMorphMaker and doing a tutorial once it's working, but I'll get back to this if I have any ideas. Base1980, I'll be very interested in seeing your results.
Sockpuppet
#18 Old 26th Nov 2009 at 12:25 AM Last edited by Base1980 : 26th Nov 2009 at 1:05 AM.
tho, why are there so many lod2 tops?
I have 3 diffrent lod2 files.

btw, i could not discover underweighted bones.
The 4th bone is always selected and will use the remaining percentage of the boneweights.
I am fixing the one without the breast assignements, hope its the right one :D
Ms. Byte (Deceased)
Original Poster
#19 Old 26th Nov 2009 at 9:38 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Base1980
tho, why are there so many lod2 tops?
I have 3 diffrent lod2 files.

btw, i could not discover underweighted bones.
The 4th bone is always selected and will use the remaining percentage of the boneweights.
I am fixing the one without the breast assignements, hope its the right one :D


For this particular top (afTopShirtTee_crew) there should only be one lod2 mesh. What are the TGIs of the files you're seeing?

The bone weight problem is that in the line of vertices under the breasts and to a lesser extent above them, the breast bone weights are set too high and in several cases they're assigned to both breasts. In other words: under the left breast the vertices are assigned to the right breast as well as the left, and vice-versa. When the breast bones are moved or expanded, those vertices move too much and create that lumpy look. The bone weights should be highest at the center of the breast and should decrease to the edges so you get a smooth increase in size with bone changes.
Sockpuppet
#20 Old 26th Nov 2009 at 1:52 PM Last edited by Base1980 : 26th Nov 2009 at 3:56 PM.
I have 3 LOD2 meshes for the top and 2 LOD2_1(part of the left hand) meshes.

1st
S3_015a1849_00d4f44c_0000000031afb84d.simgeom
Vertices: 1146
Triangles:1595
TGIRef00: 00B2D882 00000000 94E9F715 E099BCBE
TGIRef01: 00B2D882 00000000 94E9F715 E099BCBD
TGIRef02: 00B2D882 00000000 94E9F715 E099BCA3
TGIRef03: 00AE6C67 00D4F44C 00000000 741764D5


2nd
S3_015a1849_006dd41d_0000000031afb84d.simgeom
Vertices: 1021
Triangles:1404
TGIRef00: 00B2D882 00000000 94E9F715 E099BCBE
TGIRef01: 00B2D882 00000000 94E9F715 E099BCBD
TGIRef02: 00B2D882 00000000 94E9F715 E099BCA3
TGIRef03: 00AE6C67 006DD41D 00000000 774504E4

3rd
S3_015a1849_0062bf11_0000000031afb84d.simgeom
Vertices: 1056
Triangles:1468
TGIRef00: 00B2D882 00000000 94E9F715 E099BCBE
TGIRef01: 00B2D882 00000000 94E9F715 E099BCBD
TGIRef02: 00B2D882 00000000 94E9F715 E099BCA3
TGIRef03: 00AE6C67 0062BF11 00000000 16C6ADF1

The 2nd and 3rd have a LOD2_1 mesh wich contains parts of the left hand.
I suspect the Young Adults have there own meshes?

I noticed the breasts have indeed assignements for both bones.
Also marked the meshes and went ingame.
Same story, the LOD1 mesh is still used when on low detail, included a screenshot.
The LOD2 wich is used(when zooming out) is the S3_015a1849_00d4f44c_0000000031afb84d.simgeom.

I did edit the LOD1 file by upadting some boneassignements ontop of the breasts and below.
The changes ontop were visible in CAS but not ingame while the edits below the breasts were visible in CAS and ingame, very strange.(all on low simdetail)
Screenshots
Ms. Byte (Deceased)
Original Poster
#21 Old 26th Nov 2009 at 8:09 PM
Oh, I get it now. Those other two meshes are for the teen and elder outfits. That's pretty common, that there are three variations of a mesh for the three ages.

In your pic I can still see the unevenness below the breasts, but it looks to me like you have them pushed up or maybe the fullness adjusted so it's much less obvious than the distortion on top.
Sockpuppet
#22 Old 26th Nov 2009 at 8:26 PM
The picture i put up is the default one, unedited.
I also took the Lod1 mesh and gave it new assignements(all copied from another top) but it didn't made much diffrence.
Things even got worse as i ended up with a seam arround the neck but i am 100% sure i did not move the mesh(still has the correct coordinates...)
There is something wrong with either the meshes or even the skeleton used.
Going to use another skeleton now,

I think there is a easy fix for this mesh tho
Change the meshes with the afTopTornTshirt, its almost identical.
Theorist
#23 Old 1st Dec 2009 at 11:59 PM
I tweaked the T-shirt and it got even weirder! I modified the bone assignments in order to get uniform stretching across the breasts and eliminate the pincushion distortion that occurs with larger breasts. I applied a test pattern to the shirt and adjusted the bone weights accordingly. It came out very nicely in max sim detail, but on Medium, it's all messed up! The bone assignments for the center vertices were odd to begin with, I would think if they are assigned any breast bone at all, it should be 50/50, but some of the center bones were assigned only to one breast. Now that I see what they do on lower sim detail, I'm thinking the bone assignments were weird in order to compensate/compromise between the different detail settings. I even have one vertex that appears way off. It's 80% spine1, 10% r_breast, 10% l_breast. Before, it wasn't that far off, but it was 58% spine1, 30% l_breast, 12% spine0. I dropped spine0 because the texture was crooked if l_breast and r_breast weren't 50/50. I guess Sims 3 doesn't support 4th bones? It doesn't seem to.
Screenshots

Resident wet blanket.
Sockpuppet
#24 Old 2nd Dec 2009 at 1:52 AM
I took the boneassignements from the aftopbra and copied them on the mesh.
So i got a kinda skintight shirt lol.
Both screenshots show the lod1 mesh on Low sim detail and it didn't gave me strange errors.
With sims 2 i used to extract the uvmap and use it as clothing, works perfect when adjusting bones
Also funny to see that when you load the same mesh in the teen package it will give the teen much larger breasts.
And also made me wonder..... as the teen is much shorter.
Screenshots
Alchemist
#25 Old 2nd Dec 2009 at 2:23 AM
Quote: Originally posted by GnatGoSplat
I guess Sims 3 doesn't support 4th bones? It doesn't seem to.


I know I have seen 4 weights in EA-made files, although they are not used extensively. Unlike Sims 2, the 4th weight isn't implied, it's explicit in the TS3 file format.

That doesn't mean the engine uses them correctly (and I never really tested that detail), but the EA artists that made the meshes used them.

If you like to say what you think, be sure you know which to do first.
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