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The ModFather
retired moderator
Original Poster
#1 Old 23rd Oct 2005 at 12:16 AM
Default How to make walls under roof usable?
Please look at the attached picture: only the green section of the wall is as high as a standard wall, and therefore can host a window or a wall-mounted object.
On the contrary, the red sections are unusable, though some of them are high enough to host a wall-mounted object.
In the picture, I could manage to place a sconce and a poster on a red section, but only using the moveobject cheat.

Does someone know if there is a way (not the moveobject cheat) to make the red walls accept a wall-mounted object?
I was wondering if there is a flag that can be set in the Init BHAV of the object that can allow or prevent it to be mounted on such low (slanted) walls.

Plz heeeeelp!
Screenshots

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#2 Old 23rd Oct 2005 at 12:35 AM
I haven't seen any flag that I think could be used for this. My first (and only) thought was move_objects! Or perhaps the allow intersection flag?

"You can do refraction by raymarching through the depth buffer" (c. Reddeyfish 2017)
The ModFather
retired moderator
Original Poster
#3 Old 23rd Oct 2005 at 1:33 AM
But the "allow intersection" should affect intersection with other objects, or sims... Or not? Thanks for replying, anyway.

If you are wondering why I don't want to use the cheat, that's because I'm interested in placing a window, there: and the cheat prevents the wallmask from properly cut the hole in the wall.

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Lab Assistant
#4 Old 23rd Oct 2005 at 6:32 AM
The problem is not really that you can't attach a window to the wall. The problem is that the wallmasks won't work without a big enough wall. Take a look at the attached screenshot. That window was placed w/o any cheats, simply by using a "trick of building". As soon as I put the roof on and the attic walls formed, the wallmask vanished. The moveobjects cheat doesn't effect whether or not wallmasks are used.

If I had to guess, I'd say maybe it's possible if you lowered the window far enough in a 3D program (Milkshape or Max), adjusted the pivot point so it's truly lower than normal and far enough below the roof eaves that the wallmask can take effect... that might work, or not. I'm not sure how the game is calculating placement values on whether or not to attempt to apply a wallmask... whether it's through a BHAV or something else.
Screenshots
The ModFather
retired moderator
Original Poster
#5 Old 23rd Oct 2005 at 4:46 PM
Thanks Targa, I understand your point; but the wallmask hasn't a mesh to go with: it is always as high as a standard wall section. So, if you are right, probably it's not possible to do what I want, without editing game files that we usually never touch (e.g. the shaders...).

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Forum Resident
#6 Old 23rd Oct 2005 at 5:01 PM
wallmasks of mo on placed objects do apply on reload, but it seems not to work on attic walls as targa explained.
Lab Assistant
#7 Old 23rd Oct 2005 at 5:50 PM
Yep, I thought about it a bit more and looked at it again, and I think what the game is doing is checking to see if the wall is a "standard wall" or an "attic wall", and the attic wall properties do not allow for wallmasks to be applied. Haven't been able to find any files for hacking walltypes though.
The ModFather
retired moderator
Original Poster
#8 Old 23rd Oct 2005 at 6:05 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Targa
the attic wall properties do not allow for wallmasks to be applied.


Do you guess or do you know that attic walls don't allow wallmasks to be applied? I can't see any parameter in the walls.txt that can apply to wallmasks. Actually, there are very few differences between the normal and attic walls, mainly related to the leveled or unleveled top...

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Lab Assistant
#9 Old 23rd Oct 2005 at 6:16 PM Last edited by Targa : 23rd Oct 2005 at 6:21 PM.
Ah, it was just a guess. I'm thinking that when a window intersects an attic wall (which does not have the default rectangular dimensions of a standard wall), the game is not allowing the wallmask to be applied (because of the non-standard dimensions). As I said in my earlier post, I'm not sure how the game is calculating placement values on whether or not to attempt to apply a wallmask. As you know, when you apply wallpaper (which is simply a texture and has no mesh), the game slices off the wallpaper texture to match the attic wall shape. So the game is aware of the difference in walls and their dimensions. The short answer is that I have no solution for you, sorry. I'll take a look at it again to see if I can come up with anything constructive.

Edit: Forgot to mention... if you look at the wallmasks, their dimensions coincide with a full-sized standard wall rather than being an image exactly the size of the window. So (it's my guess) that the game is attempting to "fit" the wallmask onto the wall, but the attic wall is the wrong shape, and the game therefore refuses to apply it.
The ModFather
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Original Poster
#10 Old 23rd Oct 2005 at 7:05 PM
I'll try and investigate more about this subject...

Thank you for your help, anyway

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Mad Poster
#11 Old 24th Feb 2006 at 9:12 AM Last edited by niol : 25th Feb 2006 at 4:17 PM. Reason: fixing typos and grammatic mistakes...:P
Quote: Originally posted by Targa
So (it's my guess) that the game is attempting to "fit" the wallmask onto the wall, but the attic wall is the wrong shape, and the game therefore refuses to apply it.


Yes, it does appear that "the game is attempting to ""fit" the wallmask onto the wall" proportionally according to the shape of the wall and the shape of the window wall-mask itself. The resultant wall-mask shape will be somewhere in-between them

However, unseemingly, it's due to " the wrong shape" that "the game therefore refuses to apply it, for even the default wall and foundation walls are set like the attic wall in the wall.txt. It's more likely that the roof tile or floor tile or a fixated level grid layer also affects if an object can be placed causing the error message "the ceiling" is too low".

Look at the following "graphical action"...
This is the control for 4 sorts of walls: foundation wall (top left), attic wall (top middle, yes it's shorter than the others by design; it's the "false top" setting that makes it look longer than the others with the default game setting Still one can find a gap between this type of wall and the roof), default wall 1 (top right), screen deck wall (bottom left). Without any cheat, normal window can be placed on them, even the screendeck wall coz I've enabled it and foundation wall's object placement setting in the wall.txt.
For those unsure how to, learn about the wall.txt setting, please read this


After raising deformation of the ground, notice how the wall shape affects the wall-mask shape. After all, it appears that the wall-mask shape is still in ratio to the wall segment.


Now, add a default roof.


With the moveobject cheat on, windows can be placed on the side slanted roof walls.


After a lot reload, the wallmask is graphically corrected. look at the lights behind the windows.


Numenor's wall-windows have a full wall-mask to completely silence the wall graphically.


So, if someone wants to make some slandted windows to fit the default roof, use the full wall-mask and shape the window to fit into the place. It should take only 3 pieces for a floor height. However, if it's higher than a floor, using both the default wall and roof-tools may be a better approach.



For the following "graphical action", it's about how fixated level grid layer affects object placement.

At the bottom right, 3 default wall segments are built.


With boolprop constrainfloorelevation false, build a foundation near them.


Now, with the moveobject cheat off, I tried to place a 270-curved wall-window to the roof slanted attic wall. Surely, it turned red and the act was disallowed.


Now, on the default wall of its quarter size, it works. [Conclusion: it's not the wall shape or size that limit the object placement.]


Oh the other hand, some tiles were added to the another side of the wall segments.


Now, try to place more windows on the wall segments... It works for the middle one which is still not tiled for both sides of this wall segment. Nevertheless, the most right one, tiled, cannot have the window on it. [Conclusion: Tiles' positions will be recorded in a lot package file and so it can be used to fixate the level grid layer at its location. It's the horizontal level grid layer that is used to limit whether an object like a sims or a window can be placed in terms of "height" for the graphical presentation of the game on a monitor.]


Just a view with a higher level, nothing else was changed.



After all, I think grid-based placement fixation can be silenced in order for the windows to be placeable anywhere, just like echo's rugs back to the days...

The ModFather
retired moderator
Original Poster
#12 Old 24th Feb 2006 at 7:36 PM
Niol, thanks for your interesting findings! I'm especially interested in the fact that *reloading the game*, the wallmask is correctly applied even on slanted walls!

I'm not sure to have understood one thing, though: the glass WallWindow that you have placed on the "A-Frame" wall is a normal rectangular windows? I can't see it peek through the roof, while I'd expect it to do...
You say that some special slanted windows should be needed for the purpose: I already have prepared a couple of them, but in the end I didn't released them because I didn't know how to place them on the attic walls...

Now that I think better... Perhaps I've given you a special 30° cut window? Is it the one you used in the screenshots?


One last question, unrelated to the WallWindows: what happened to the wall in the up-center (the first attic wall)? I can see it in the first screes, and then it disappears!

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Forum Resident
#13 Old 24th Feb 2006 at 9:13 PM
Numenor:
1) It's barely visible
2) it would have to be 45 degrees, one like you should know a wall is 3 tiles high.

Niol:
Quote:
[Conclusion: it's not the wall shape or size that limit the object placement.]

correct, it's the height of the next floortile/object above.
Mad Poster
#14 Old 24th Feb 2006 at 10:37 PM Last edited by niol : 25th Feb 2006 at 4:33 PM. Reason: As promised, deleted my off-topic statement...
Actually, these're not new findings but just uncommon, and might have been well known by some highly-skilled lot-builders like Fat D. But as still a learner, I learnt them from personal expereinces.

I was searching some threads and just came across this thread, and I found this thread can be a good place to clarify these uncommon build issues while trying to suggest something at the same time.

When the normal roof and the normal attic walls are up, the stand-alone attic wall segments just tend to appear wall-down even with the roof-up setting! I surely can't explain why. (Fat D, do you know an answer? coz I'm still curious about that...)

As for the wall-window, the frontal one is a vertically slanted one from your slanted wall-window set. The left back rectangular one depicted by the following pic does peek through the roof..



As for the shape or size of the suggested slanted windows, Fat D has already explained. Just my stating the obvious, that ratio is just for the default roof shape.

I'm unsure the reason(s) why the attic walls are shorter by design, but a wild guess is that the gap is left to avoid any "peek-through of the attic walls on the roof. (Please correct e if I've got it wrong. )
Forum Resident
#15 Old 24th Feb 2006 at 10:42 PM
Niol, the attic wals automatically adapt themselves to the highest roof available when placing. If there is none, they will just stay on the floor. they don't even get as high as normal walls cut away.
Fat Obstreperous Jerk
#16 Old 25th Feb 2006 at 11:47 AM
Quote: Originally posted by niol
I'm unsure the reason(s) why the attic walls are shorter by design, but a wild guess is that the gap is left to avoid any "peek-through of the attic walls on the roof. (Please correct e if I've got it wrong. )

Hmm. Interesting. Is it possible to enhance the height of the attic walls, you think? Because I suspect the "shorter" aspect is what causes the "hover roof" in the neighborhood where a visible gap exists between the roof and wall.

Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I cannot accept, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of those I had to kill because they pissed me off.
Mad Poster
#17 Old 25th Feb 2006 at 5:23 PM Last edited by niol : 26th Feb 2006 at 1:58 AM.
Here's a pic of an A-frame house I made quite a while ago...
I used the roof wall/ attic walls to build the exterior..

[IMG][/IMG]

Even with wall-up under the default roof, these attic walls won't "wall up". The mostly likely way to get them up is when there's a pependicular wall segment against those meeting points of the attic wall segments. Yet, most parts of the stand-alone attic wall will remain almost completely "wall-down". *Added*: the the ones in the front or at the back are from the roof tools except the semi-walls which are also by stand-alone attic walls, but the sides are completely done by stand-alone attic walls.

I surely didn't share this lot without more tests on the stability of the stand-alone attic walls, but it's definitely a budget-saver when one can stand a house with its walls almost always down when a default roof is used in the lot. Yet, without the default roof, the stand-alone attic walls stay up. So, it infers that there may be some settings for the default that affects this paticular phenomenal behaviour of the stand-alone attic walls... :sci:

.As for how to "enhance the height of the attic walls", the only way I can think of at this moment is to make a custom fence appearing like a wall with the same ID to overwrite the default attic wall. Or, use wall1 1 (the default wall) to replace the attic walls by re-referencing the attic walls setting. Or, make some modular object to do the static object-illusion to make them look connected. I've not tested these before and I don't know if they work, so just regard these as some wild guesses.. Yet, there may be other ways, but I just don't know. Other lot builders may know, and hopefully they'll share these bits of infos.

By the way, was it meant to be a neighbourhood view at the neighbourhood mode and/or a neighourhood view at play mode? If it's the former, the static object illusion approach may not work unless one can take care of the object's presentation in the neighbourhood mode or it's a neighbourhood object placeable freely. As for the other 2, I just don't know.

Hopefully, more infos will be input.


By the way, where has Targa gone?
Mad Poster
#18 Old 13th Mar 2006 at 8:46 AM Last edited by niol : 13th Mar 2006 at 6:21 PM. Reason: fixing typos
What decides the "design" of the attic walls is the setting "verticalSpan floorToRoof".

So if it's set to "verticalSpan floorToFloor", the walls will have the same height as the other walls.

So, if the verticalSpan setting of the walls can be located and altered, the attic walls may be able to be made taller to avoid the gap glitch.


Quote: Originally posted by Fat D
Niol, the attic wals automatically adapt themselves to the highest roof available when placing. If there is none, they will just stay on the floor. they don't even get as high as normal walls cut away.


If with Fat D's idea, the "roof" in the verticalSpan setting is seemingly related to "the highest roof available"
Part-time Hermit
#19 Old 13th Mar 2006 at 8:53 AM
Should we move this to the Building forum?
Mad Poster
#20 Old 13th Mar 2006 at 9:04 AM Last edited by niol : 13th Mar 2006 at 6:39 PM. Reason: more infos to +
Why not? ^_^

Attached is the pic related to the previous post I made.

Added:
1. the cyan-coloured walls are the attic walls
2. @ LHS (left-hand-side), the closest wall is the default wall (wall 1), then it's stand-alone attic walls... then foundation walls... then screen deck wall.
3. @ RHS (right-hand-side), the roof tool attic walls can "peek-through" the roof.
4. Regardless of where the roof is located or the shape of attic walls, there're often the upper gridsfor the next level available when attic walls are set to support the next level. What interests me is that those grids are located the same "height" as the default wall, foundation walls or else. What it infers is that roof-tool roof itself may yet be another "upper level".
Screenshots
The ModFather
retired moderator
Original Poster
#21 Old 13th Mar 2006 at 5:14 PM
IgnorantBliss, please don't move it. We are trying to understand if there is a way to modify the game files in order to make these walls usable; it's not just a matter of using Maxis walls/roofs in and "artistic" way (which would pertain to the Building forum).

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retired moderator
#22 Old 13th Mar 2006 at 5:21 PM
Because this involves actual file modification, it is beyond the scope of the build forum. So back we go to General Modding

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Part-time Hermit
#23 Old 13th Mar 2006 at 5:40 PM
I'm sorry, it just seemed like a mainly building related topic for me .
Mad Poster
#24 Old 13th Mar 2006 at 6:11 PM Last edited by niol : 13th Mar 2006 at 6:16 PM. Reason: typo...:P
I'm sorry, too. I thought this topic could be discussed in both forums...
Lab Assistant
#25 Old 16th Mar 2006 at 2:52 PM
I would like to add a little something that is probably known, but I haven't noticed it reading this thread.

Standard walls and attic walls treat door and window openings differently. A window will only mask correctly on a standard wall of "normal" height, but will mask correctly on any height attic wall over the "normal" height.

Using the Easy Walls cheat (standard wall in walls.txt has flat top and flat bottom set to false) the standard walls will mask correctly at heights above normal. It is, in fact, not necessary to have flat bottom false for this to occur, only flat top false. Flat top false is also the default for attic walls. My experience is that setting flat top to false also impacts the direction that wall coverings are applied, so the game definitely treats flat top false walls differently.

I suspect any changes affecting attic walls (flat top false) will also affect people using the Easy Walls cheat.
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