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Scholar
#51 Old 24th Mar 2005 at 11:45 PM Last edited by Dr Pixel : 24th Mar 2005 at 11:49 PM.
The bones are really still there, and they still will animate in the game. But the "skeleton" is invisible, it is in fact not really a "skeleton" at all, just some animation 3d reference co-ordinates. It's obviously easier for us humans to think of it as related to an actual human skeleton, though.

Having nothing assigned to one (or more) bones doesn't matter, that just means for example when Capt Hook's left thumb "bone" moves nothing moves with it.

If you look closely at the bones list, and do a [SelAssigned] comparison of each to your mesh, you will find that not every mesh uses every bone anyway. They are all still there, and still are animated in the game, in case a mesh does use them.

===================================

About the second mesh - although it does contain and show the "morph" data, this data is not yet used for anything. In fact, any mesh edited with these plug-ins will not be able to get "fit" and "fat" anymore, it will always be the same size as the first mesh (the group named simply "body")

This also is true for Wes' earlier plugins, and for the new MeshTool using .smd files.

I think Wes is working on implementing that later. Anyway, for now, the second mesh "BODYMOD.1" is only used for storing the secondary assignments.

Wes' way of editing (by removing the second group, then re-creating it later and re-doing the secondary assignments) could make for easier editing in some cases, since you would only need to edit the one mesh. This would also insure that you didn't accidentally wind up with un-equal number of vertices in the two meshes, which would make it impossible to export the mesh.

But, I thought it was easier, for my purposes, to edit both meshes simultaniously, rather than having to try to re-create the secondary assignments myself, especially since I wouldn't have a clue where they should go.

I have now thought of yet a third way to edit - instead of deleting the BODYMOD.1 group, you could rename it, say, as "BODYMOD.Example"

Then hide it, and make all your edits only to the "body" mesh.

When finished, make a duplicate of it, name the dup "BODYMOD.1", then hide the original mesh, unhide bodt your new BODYMOD.1 and the BODYMOD.EXAMPLE mesh, and use the example mesh as a reference for re-creating the secondary assignments.

After doing that and before exporting, you would then delete BODYMOD.EXAMPLE group.

This whole plug-in set is a brialliant way Wes figured out to get around MilkShape's lack of support for multiple assignments, but it is still very much experimental as are the methods for us handling the meshes are.

The key to it is, at the end, to have two mesh groups, with identical number of vertices in each. The second group is to have the secondary assignments for the vertices (in the cases where these are desirable)

How you get to this end point is really up to you, and what works best for you.
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Alchemist
Original Poster
#52 Old 25th Mar 2005 at 3:29 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Weji

Though I've been largely successful there are still shadowing blips here and there that I can't nix.

Here's my usual process:
- Import mesh with BodyChop (AutoSmooth is OFF);
- Delete BODYMOD.x groups;
- Edit (including import of OBJ stuff);
- AutoSmooth ON;
- Edit->SelectAll;
- Vertex->Unweld;
- Vertex->Weld;
- AutoSmooth OFF;
- Regroup all and rename "body";
- Conform joint assignments;
- Duplicate "body" twice and rename the copies "BODYMOD.1", etc.;
- Save As MS3D and export using BodyChop.



There is definitely something wrong with the normals that creates the shading issues. If you rotate the model in the 3D window and look at those areas, you will probably find that at some odd angle they look fine and the other locations look darker.
I recently found that one of the 'tools' menu items in MilkShape called 'Selection Editor' allows the display of the normals. Formerly I had to export the model to the DirectX mesh tool to see them.

My main comment tonight is about your steps.
You could create a working body mesh with the regular plugins, but it would only have one bone assignment per vertex.
The idea behind the BODYMOD models was that you could change the bone assignments at specific locations to acheive a smoother animation effect.
The software goes through the models, vertex by vertex, comparing the copies with the original. When there is a different bone assignment in BODYMOD.1 than in the main model, it creates a second assignment for that vertex. Similarly for the third assignment (BODYMOD.2).
The importer leaves the bone assignments for the BODYMOD models empty EXCEPT when there is a second asignment. It makes the bone assignment value in BODYMOD.1 the value for the second assignment (and so on for the third assignment, when present).
The idea there was to allow you to study the way MAIXS put the assignments together.
Now we are all in the learning phase here on this. I believe that, because I have to use an automated skin-weight assignment process, exporting the identical extra bone assignments as the original had will not yield the optimal smoothing that could be done. I believe that by tweaking the assignments around the joints (adding or subtracting a few alternate assignments) you may get better results.

Lastly, I want to apologize for being slow to respond. I am still keenly interested in pushing forward with this. But I am also involved in trying to move all my stuff 800 miles away. I spent the last week loading all my farm equipment onto my truck and a hired one and dragging it across all or part of five states, and came home sick. Ah, but it is a grand adventure for me.
Next week I have movers hired for all the rest, and expect to be able to then concentrate on improving these plugins.

<* Wes *>

If you like to say what you think, be sure you know which to do first.
Alchemist
Original Poster
#53 Old 25th Mar 2005 at 3:38 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Dr Pixel
About the second mesh - although it does contain and show the "morph" data, this data is not yet used for anything. In fact, any mesh edited with these plug-ins will not be able to get "fit" and "fat" anymore, it will always be the same size as the first mesh (the group named simply "body")


The plugin painstakingly creates the data arrays from these models.
I left out a small data array set (0x7c4dee82) that must be related to why the animations don't occur, because the arrays with all the rest of the required data is present.
As I explained in the other post, progress has been slowed somewhat due to the fact that I actually have a life beyond the Sims 2!


<* Wes *>

If you like to say what you think, be sure you know which to do first.
Lab Assistant
#54 Old 25th Mar 2005 at 6:09 AM
I've been working with the new and old versions of plugins. Use of old version due to an error that occurs with certain teen GMDCs concerning the morphs missing when importing and exporting.

But in either case, my modified model in Bodyshop looks great everywhere except the shoulders. They have sharp edges, mainly the left shoulder. The legs are smooth, so its not universal to the model.

Any ideas?

1) Export with SimPE plugin 5gd.
2) import into milkshape (unchecked for smoothing) with older Wes plugin
3) (tf body naked) Add a new skirt mesh. Add skirt to body group. Assign to pelvis.
4) export with older Wes plugin.
5) import into mesh package.

I do receive a message that 2 groups are being excluded (maybe that's it?)
when importing into milkshape with Wes plugin. But a majority of body meshes do this.

Great results except for one sharp shoulder.

JT
Lab Assistant
#55 Old 25th Mar 2005 at 6:47 AM Last edited by jtravers88 : 25th Mar 2005 at 8:28 AM.
And I have another dilemna, now that I'm looking at the skirt in CAS where it animates. The leg comes thru the skirt. I've tried assigning the appropriate vertices to the thigh, and the pelvis, to no avail. Please see the pic. Dr. Pixel you might know the answer to this one.

Actually this pic shows the shoulder and elbow edges as well.

Lab Assistant
#56 Old 25th Mar 2005 at 8:27 AM Last edited by jtravers88 : 25th Mar 2005 at 8:29 AM.
Ok I've got the front of the skirt working by assigning more of the vertices to the thighs instead of the pelvis. I also elected to export with new version of plugin after duping the model and making a BODYMOD.1

Now the girls butt sticks thru the back of my skirt when she bends over. So I'll reassign some of those verts and experiment.
Scholar
#57 Old 25th Mar 2005 at 9:41 AM
I do know the answer to the skirt problem - unfortunately, it's not an easy thing to do.

In order to make it work, you will basically need to have a matching vertice on your skirt in every location the body mesh has a vertice on the pelvis, thigh, and all areas covered by the skirt and these vertices must have the same exact assignments that the body vertices do. You also can not have any skirt vertices in other places.

Otherwise when the legs move, the skirt will not follow them exactly, and parts of the legs will stick through the skirt.

This is an over-simplification really, it all depends on how close the particular area of the skirt is to the legs. The farther the skirt itself is from the body, the less critical it becomes.

In any case don't expect it to be a quick, easy, project to get this working. It will involve a lot of experimentation, testing, and pulling out hair

This is the reason Maxis didn't model the legs beneath their skirts.

========================================

A quick question, Wes - most meshes I import only have two groups - body and BODYMOD.1

If I added my own third group to these (BODYMOD.2) to experiment with having 3 assignments would that ruin the export? Also could I make a weighted 2/3 1/3 sort of assignment by having a vert assigned to the same bone in two groups, and to another one in the third group?


I also want to say thanks again, for these plug-ins. Although the in-game animations are still not 100% correct, they are so much better than with the single assignments! Also, when looking at my meshes in the game, I am being super-critical because I know where to look for animation glitches, and I am looking to catch them. I doubt that most people would ever notice them at all.

Another interesting thing - while watching my meshes in the game, I am of course comapring them to the Maxis meshes, and if you watch with a critical eye, the Maxis meshes don't always animate entire accurately either.

My point is, there are limitations to the animation system itself (the number of available bones, etc) so keep that in mind while critiquing your own work.
Test Subject
#58 Old 25th Mar 2005 at 3:33 PM
Quote: Originally posted by wes_h
I recently found that one of the 'tools' menu items in MilkShape called 'Selection Editor' allows the display of the normals.

Thanks. I'll give that a shot.

Quote: Originally posted by wes_h
Lastly, I want to apologize for being slow to respond.


Far as I'm concerned, there's no need to apologize. It's not as if we're filling your RL mailbox with cash, after all. Good luck on the move!

I'm just thrilled that I can do some things to Sims2 body meshes with this plugin as-is that I couldn't do before. If my input helps in any way to add stability or capability I'd be more than happy.

Quote: Originally posted by Dr Pixel
For the neck problem, when I am finished I select all the vertices at the top of the neck ad pull them straight up a bit.


Yup, this is generally enough. I prefer precision, though, and it's quicker for me to temporarilly import one of the stock/default meshes (with renamed group) I have laying around already for the purpose and line things up exactly. It won't be quicker for everyone, I know, but bodyshop takes forever to load and in that time I can have lined up the neck verts exactly and not have to test in bodyshop to see if they look okay.
Lab Assistant
#59 Old 25th Mar 2005 at 7:33 PM
Dr. Pixel, yes I figured this out around 3 am this morning. I reassigned vertices to thighs, vs pelvis, and the butt back to pelvis, and all is A O K.

I have another question though, UV Map related. When I load an obj into Lithunwrap (last version of freeware) then don't do anything except save back to obj, I get an error stating 'OBJ file doesn't include vertex normals' when I go to load back into the mesh tool. What setting do I need in Lithunwrap to prevent this message?

Thanks
Scholar
#60 Old 26th Mar 2005 at 12:09 AM
I don't know if LithunWrap supports the normals or not - I've actually never used it direct on an .obj file, other than to make a UV map .bmp

What I do is save the mesh as a .ms3d file, open that in LithUnwrap, then save it from LithUnwarp again as a .ms3d

Then I open it again in MilkShape, and export as .obj file for the MeshTool.

=====================

This MIGHT work also (I haven't tried) and I am assuming that this is a freshly exported .obj file (meaning not just exported as .obj from MilkShape, but directly exportrd as .obj from the GMDC by SimPE)

Open the .obj in MeshTool anyway (if it will open it) ignoring the warning.

Then, be sure that "Import Normals" is NOT checked before saving it as GMDC. In fact, if it is just for the UV map, uncheck everything except "Import UV's"
Lab Assistant
#61 Old 26th Mar 2005 at 3:14 AM
Well the mesh tool doesn't open it after that error msg, so that's a no go.

I'll try your steps for manipulating a uvmap with lithunwrap.

Is there anything that I'm missing as far as settings or checks/unchecks in losing these sharp shoulders on the Sims? This seems to be the only drawback at this point to the new plugins. Maybe there is something I'm missing.
Scholar
#62 Old 26th Mar 2005 at 9:25 AM
Doing the "Weld Together" technique I mentioned in a previous post seems to fix the normals as well as possible. It's still not perfect, but much better.
I don't know of any way to actually "adjust" them in MilkShape other than that.

If I don't do that, the new mesh seems to be exported in a way that makes the whole body look very "angular" with sharp creases not only on the shoulders, but all the way down the arms, and especially noticable on the hands.
Scholar
#63 Old 26th Mar 2005 at 6:13 PM
Default Combining mesh parts?
Is it possible to combine parts of two meshes using these plug-ins?

I tried to do this, but get an error when I try to export:

"Bone Count Incorrect for Body Mesh"

Either of the two meshes can be successfully imported/exported by itself.

Here is what I am doing:

I am trying to add the legs and feet of a mesh I prevouisly edited -

I import both meshes with the plugin - one comes in with three parts, one with two

I chop the legs off the first mesh (the three part one)

I chop everything but the legs off the second mesh

I make a third copy of the "just legs" mesh

now I combine one of each body and legs meshes (so I again have just three groups)

I name the first group (which was the two original "body" groups) into one, rename it as "body" and restore the comment

I do the same with the other groups - the second named BODYMOD.1, the third BODYMOD.2

But then I get the error while trying to export.

I haven't done anything to the bones (in fact, I'm not even sure that you can add or remove bones in MilkShape?)

Should I be doing something different?

I have been able to combine in other mesh parts this way by importing them as .obj files, but then of course I must re-do all the assignments for those parts.
Test Subject
#64 Old 27th Mar 2005 at 12:02 AM Last edited by Weji : 27th Mar 2005 at 1:09 AM. Reason: update
Doc, I've only been able to import as OBJ's.

I'm sweating normals. The Selection Editor I shows the normals, I can see they are FUBAR and can select the faces but I can find no way to edit them. I'm no Einstein so I assume I'm just missing something obvious.

Logged on to note: bumpmaps on 3 bodies I'm testing in BodyShop are disabled (the only BodyChop meshes I have setup for viewing). I used afbodyunderwear_ as the base for all of them and I'll do some testing later to see it's just me or a plugin issue.

* Just tested with a freshly extracted afbodyunderwear_ and confirmed that the bumpmaping is definitely being nixed with the bodychop import/export. Funny I never noticed it before as I use bumpmapping on everything (even if I have to add it by hand). The map image is still retained in the package and the matdef entries are identical across the board. Anyone else?
Screenshots
Lab Assistant
#65 Old 27th Mar 2005 at 3:48 AM
Dr. Pixel, I had this problem Bone Count also. I found that if you are careful and wind up with more vertices, your ok, but if you have less on any of the morphs, you get that error. Somehow during your cutting your losing some vertices OR, when you add the new feet, you don't make the joint assignments, that will cause it to I believe. On the body, when clicking selunassigned, you should not have any vertices go red. doesn't matter on bodymod.1 and 2.
Lab Assistant
#66 Old 27th Mar 2005 at 3:50 AM
The thought of a universal unweld scares me, but I'll try it to get rid of the sharp edges.
Lab Assistant
#67 Old 27th Mar 2005 at 4:30 AM
Ok Gentleman, I did an unweld and weld, and now I have oodles of floating vertices, not attached to any edges. I've never seen this before so I'm assuming it had something to do with the unweld/weld process.
Test Subject
#68 Old 27th Mar 2005 at 4:40 AM
wow JT I have never seen what you describe. The weld/unweld works fine for me every time. <shrug>

The way I handle the bodymod.x bits is pretty brutal but it saves time (deleting them, duplicating "body" and renaming the dupes bodymod.x).
Field Researcher
#69 Old 27th Mar 2005 at 4:55 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Dr Pixel
Is it possible to combine parts of two meshes using these plug-ins?

I tried to do this, but get an error when I try to export:

"Bone Count Incorrect for Body Mesh"

Either of the two meshes can be successfully imported/exported by itself.

Here is what I am doing:

I am trying to add the legs and feet of a mesh I prevouisly edited -

I import both meshes with the plugin - one comes in with three parts, one with two

I chop the legs off the first mesh (the three part one)

I chop everything but the legs off the second mesh

I make a third copy of the "just legs" mesh

now I combine one of each body and legs meshes (so I again have just three groups)

I name the first group (which was the two original "body" groups) into one, rename it as "body" and restore the comment

I do the same with the other groups - the second named BODYMOD.1, the third BODYMOD.2

But then I get the error while trying to export.

I haven't done anything to the bones (in fact, I'm not even sure that you can add or remove bones in MilkShape?)

Should I be doing something different?

I have been able to combine in other mesh parts this way by importing them as .obj files, but then of course I must re-do all the assignments for those parts.


Could you possibly upload your ms3d file?

I have been able to do something similar to what you are describing with Wes's 2.15 plugins in Milkshape. I'm interested in seeing what you might have done differently with yours...

~faeriegurl~
Sims 2 Creations - http://www.sims2creations.com

faerie's blog - http://spaces.msn.com/members/enchantedrealm/
Lab Assistant
#70 Old 27th Mar 2005 at 4:57 AM
Ok, I've tried the weld / unweld, with smoothing on, and the resulting body is unuseable.

Lab Assistant
#71 Old 27th Mar 2005 at 5:02 AM
Also I have no idea what those floating vertices were, but if I selected BODYMOD.1 as a group and then clicked hide, they disappeared with it. I'm going to try again. I'm going to keep trying until I get this. I'm so close to having a 'look up' skirt, but I'm struggling with these sharp edges, and then changing the UV Map.
Lab Assistant
#72 Old 27th Mar 2005 at 5:10 AM
Ok I didn't turn autosmoothing back off after the weld/unweld, so I'll try that. I also didn't delete MOD.1 and 2, since I usually apply my new obj mesh to those as well to preserve the morphs. So I'll go thru Dr. Pixels steps exactly to see if I can get some blasted smooth arms.

Dr. Pixel, it might help with your problem to know that if I don't add my new skirt mesh to MOD.1 and 2, I get that error your getting, but I dont get the error if I add it to body, Mod.1 and 2. That is where I made the assumption your still lacking vertices somewhere.
Scholar
#73 Old 27th Mar 2005 at 5:19 AM Last edited by Dr Pixel : 27th Mar 2005 at 5:32 AM.
jtravers, it's not going to get any better than what you show in the picture.

Take a close look at an unmodified Maxis mesh - it has the same sort of angularity when you zoom in close to it.

These are, after all, low-poly game meshes.

They actually look much better in the game, BodyShop seems to have a rather harsh lighting system.

I don't use "unweld" myself -

What I do is this:

Hide all except the "body" group.

Then I select it, and use "Vertice/Weld Together" on the menu.

As you watch in the 3d window, you should see the model go from "sharp edged" to smooth.

Then I hide this group, unhide BODYMOD.1, and do the same thing

If there is a BODYMOD.2 group, I do the same again.

This corrects all the Normals for as smooth a look as you can get in MilkShape.

To the best of my knowledge, there isn't any way to edith them individually in MilkShape.

If there is, I'd like to hear about it.
Scholar
#74 Old 27th Mar 2005 at 5:48 AM Last edited by Dr Pixel : 27th Mar 2005 at 5:50 AM.
No, it wasn't the missing vertices (although I have done that one too) but when I do that, it gives the error saying the vertice counts don't match.

I checked the counts, all three groups had the exact same number of vertices.

Maybe when I deleted the legs and then replace them with the legs from the other mesh, it got the bone information out of order or something....

===============================================

faeriegurl, I can't upload that .ms3d file that wouldn't export, because I deleted it and used a different method. I only asked the question for future reference. I probably should have saved it, but when I'm in the midst of a project and something doesn't work, I tend to go at it from a different angle to make it work, and then later try to find out if I could have done it another (easier) way later. If it is needed for testing, I could re-create it.

Yes, what I did would work with the 2.15 plug-ins, but then I would lose the multiple-bone assignments.

==============================

I never noticed the thing about the missing bump maps, since I don't use them anyway - I'll check mine, though, to see if it happened to them too.
Alchemist
Original Poster
#75 Old 27th Mar 2005 at 7:04 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Dr Pixel
"Bone Count Incorrect for Body Mesh"


When you use the plugin to import multiple GMDCs, you get everything, including a new copy of the bone structure.
If you look in the 'joints' tab you'll see this. Two of each bone.
Since the skeleton is standard, I made the plugin count the bones to make sure there are the right number (65). Doubled, that's 130. Thus the error message.

Well, then How do you do it?
Import one mesh, save it as an .obj file, import the second, then import the .obj file.

If you like to say what you think, be sure you know which to do first.
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