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Old 14th Jul 2011, 12:47 PM Help me round the learning curve - clothing #1
spatulageekgirl
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The only productive thing I've done this summer so far was to start meshing. Now I'm three days in and pleasantly surprised with my efforts so far but it wouldn't be a "my first mesh" without some issues.

I'm working on two of the Lolita dresses that came with the street couture set, detackifying them. Removing some bows and pockets any other things with which EA exceeded their flounce allowance.

I've basically finished LOD1 for both of them on the base mesh (fat and thin morphs weren't exported for some reason but I'll get to that later), and have mostly done the UV maps but I've got a couple of things I need to fix.

First dress in Milkshape.



And in Workshop.




I don't know if it was a safe thing to do, but I deleted two of the ruffles and used the sims 2 vertex data merge to sew the skirt together again. There's some slight shading issues where it stops and starts on the skirt, but the bigger issues is the shadows on the side-seams. It's something I've seen on poorly made meshes before and obviously just won't do. How does I fixed it? Would I be right in saying it's the normals causing it? Also, will I need to correct bone alignments? How do I go about that?

Links to any good tutorials for these two issues would be greatly appreciated, but I may need to ask and confirm some things as well.

Here's the second dress in Milkshape.


and in Workshop (obvious bone problems here)


Again, I deleted a bunch of vertexes to get rid of the pockets (though you can see the remnants in the shading) and here it's obviously borked the bone alignment or something, causing that weird plate armour-like effect on the skirt.


Still, for my first time I feel I'm not doing too bad.

Oh, also, don't know where the textures went on workshop, they were there originally. I'm sure I can fix it later.

Things for later:
Fat, thin, fit morphs. HOW?

And watch me test in game where there will surely be some fantastically outrageous mistakes and deformed sims than will make my inner child cry and hide under the covers
Old 14th Jul 2011, 4:16 PM #2
Elexis
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Oh, there are so many things I can tell you about this
First of all, when you're trying to smooth some parts of the mesh, like sewing the skirt parts together, don't use Smooth all function! It will make ALL seams visible, like on the arms and legs you have there. Use Align Normals instead.
Secondly, the Store meshes don't have morphs (at least the ones you can extract and use), so the only way is to move ALL vertices to match EA's morph states. It's a one long and terrifying process even for an expert. Once I made the dress using parts of the Store mesh and it took about 2 weeks to make all morphs by hand.
How does it look in game?

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Old 14th Jul 2011, 11:35 PM #3
CmarNYC
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Question - can you extract the BGEO files from store clothing? If so, I'm currently working on a meshing toolkit to include a function to create morph meshes from base meshes and a BGEO. (I was wondering how useful that would be but this may answer that.) If it works out you could do: Original base mesh + BGEO -> morph meshes for original base mesh, then: Altered base mesh + original morph mesh -> new morph mesh, and: New morph mesh -> New BGEO for the morphs for your clothing. A little convoluted but a lot faster and easier than making all the morphs by hand.
Old 14th Jul 2011, 11:37 PM #4
BloomsBase
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Use Demon's alligne normals to fix the seams(search on this site)


All Store outfits have their morphs included.
One of the reasons im sure EA wanted us to mod because the morphs themselves aren't used by the game, only its data is.
Its just a matter of extracting the morphGEOMs from the package and import them in milkshape.
Old 15th Jul 2011, 12:12 PM #5
spatulageekgirl
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Alright, I tested them in game, and they're not too bad, all considered. Obviously they spaz-out when I try to use morphs, but with the fat-thin slider centred they look pretty good. Just a few transparent seams across the skirts.







Safe for me to continue? Fix the shading problem and do the morphs states? I don't mind if I have to do it manually. I'm willing to spend the time on it.
Old 16th Jul 2011, 8:04 PM #6
BloomsBase
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So you are making new morphs?
If so you wont face any problems i guess, it is alot of work tho....


If you want to include the morphs you have to start over.
You extract the base mesh with TSRW as you did earlier and export the morphs from the package file(convert the sims3pack) with either Postal or S3PE as obj file
Those obj files you import in Milkshape together with the base mesh extracted from TSRW
You rename all properly, export and import them back in TSRW
Old 16th Jul 2011, 8:22 PM #7
BloomsBase
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CmarNYC
Question - can you extract the BGEO files from store clothing? If so, I'm currently working on a meshing toolkit to include a function to create morph meshes from base meshes and a BGEO. (I was wondering how useful that would be but this may answer that.) If it works out you could do: Original base mesh + BGEO -> morph meshes for original base mesh, then: Altered base mesh + original morph mesh -> new morph mesh, and: New morph mesh -> New BGEO for the morphs for your clothing. A little convoluted but a lot faster and easier than making all the morphs by hand.



I dont think there is much use for it?
You can extract and reuse the Bgeo files but i can not think of a reason why you want to do that.
EA includes the morphs wich are more important then the Bgeo when you want to edit the base mesh.

A tool to recreate the morphs from a Bgeo file i would love to have.
But only because my older creations are no longer compatible with the latest versions of TSRW and because i lost all morphs due a hd crash....
So i can not recreate them, like the alphaskirt i once made...
Old 16th Jul 2011, 9:42 PM #8
omegastarr82
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Why have I always thought store content didn't come with the morphs, only the BGEO's? Odd. Either way, I always learn something new when lurking in a Bloom thread.
Old 17th Jul 2011, 11:06 AM #9
spatulageekgirl
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Thanks for all the help so far, they're looking a lot better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloomsBase
So you are making new morphs?
If so you wont face any problems i guess, it is alot of work tho....


If you want to include the morphs you have to start over.
You extract the base mesh with TSRW as you did earlier and export the morphs from the package file(convert the sims3pack) with either Postal or S3PE as obj file
Those obj files you import in Milkshape together with the base mesh extracted from TSRW
You rename all properly, export and import them back in TSRW


I already converted it to .package cause I was having trouble with it in pack format. I'm a bit confused though, Where do I find the morphs? where Do I export them from/to?
Old 17th Jul 2011, 2:17 PM #10
CmarNYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BloomsBase
I dont think there is much use for it?
You can extract and reuse the Bgeo files but i can not think of a reason why you want to do that.
EA includes the morphs wich are more important then the Bgeo when you want to edit the base mesh.

A tool to recreate the morphs from a Bgeo file i would love to have.
But only because my older creations are no longer compatible with the latest versions of TSRW and because i lost all morphs due a hd crash....
So i can not recreate them, like the alphaskirt i once made...


I agree that EA must have expected modding - why else include all those morph meshes? Unless the idea to compress the data in the BGEO's was last minute and they didn't think to pull the meshes - but the meshes are still there in the expansion packs. Anyway.

Yeah, looks like the ability to create morphs meshes from BGEO files would have limited use but still would come in handy at times, and it wouldn't be hard to do. I'm planning on including it when I finalize my tool - whenever that is!

Can you only export/import meshes in TSRW as obj files?? No way to work with simgeom? Don't you lose information? Maybe that's why when people have given me meshes exported from TSRW they had no vertex IDs and were useless for working with morphs.

Strange - the one store package I have has no BGEO files. It has BBLNs that S3PE can't read, and morph VPXYs that point to the morph meshes. Bloom, are all the store packages like this?? Makes me wonder if the game is able to directly use morph meshes after all.

Spatulageekgirl, you really should check out my MorphMatcher tool once you get a hold of the morph meshes - tweaking an updated version of the EA morph is a lot easier than making one from scratch. http://www.modthesims.info/showthread.php?t=442393
Old 17th Jul 2011, 7:31 PM #11
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Not sure if TSRW is updated on this part but meshes exported with TSRW(WSO exporter) uses a diffrent jointorder wich makes SimGEOMs incompatible with TSRW
I did once make a Ms3d file that you can use to convert a SIMGEOM to WSO format but in this case you dont need it.

In theory:
*Convert the sims3pack to package with Delphy's multiinstaller
*Run the file through S3rc
*Open the file with Postal or S3PE and export the morphs(either as obj file or as SimGEOM)
*Clone the package(or sims3pack) with TSRW and export the base mesh in the meshtab

Milkshape:
*Import the base mesh with the WSO importer
*Import the morphs with OBJ importer or WEs H his SimGEOM importer
*Rename the morphs
*Export all 5 with WSO exporter.

The WSO importer/exporter does not support vertId's because you dont need them in Milkshape.
The moment you import your meshes back into TSRW, TSRW will assigne all meshes with vertID's

Lol Cmar, i never noticed that the Bgeo's aren't there......Now im really confused wich file i once used to try to reuse the Bgeo file????
The BBLN's are the BBlend files but the link to the Bgeo in it i can not find anywere else....
And when trying to view the Bgeo file i get a error in Postal(but prolly cos Postal is looking in the basegame fullbuild...)
Old 17th Jul 2011, 11:17 PM #12
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Curiouser and curiouser! The store stuff seems to use a different version of the bblend format, which points to a VPXY instead of a BGEO. This must be why both S3PE and Postal error on it.The VPXY in turn points to morph meshes. If this means the game can use morph meshes directly this could simplify the process of CC clothing, although I suspect it might slow the game a little.
Old 17th Jul 2011, 11:33 PM #13
spatulageekgirl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CmarNYC

Spatulageekgirl, you really should check out my MorphMatcher tool once you get a hold of the morph meshes - tweaking an updated version of the EA morph is a lot easier than making one from scratch. http://www.modthesims.info/showthread.php?t=442393


YES. I was just about to ask about this issue, given I was deleting vertexes with wild abandon and have no idea how I'd go about recreating what I'd done so far on the morph meshes. Thank you, this is exactly what I need.

Opening one of the packages (the peter-pan collar dress) in S3pe, there are 12 GEOM files, how do I know which, if any, are the Morph meshes? Is it just a case of exporting them all and looking?

That only leaves two more issues for now. 1 Being the weird bone alignment (I'm assuming) in the second mesh and 2 being an error message I'm getting when trying to import another edited mesh from milkshape into Workshop. Something about it was expecting 3000 vertex and found 0. Any ideas?
Old 18th Jul 2011, 12:14 AM #14
CmarNYC
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Here's a rough guide on how to find the morph meshes (been figuring this out myself!). I'm assuming your store package is constructed the same way the one I have is - otherwise it's back to the drawing board.

1. Open in s3pe. Find and click the CASP file. On the left part of the screen with the details, look for "BlendInfoFatIndex:". There will be a hex number there - I'll use the example 0x0C.
2. Scroll down in that left detail display to "CountedTGIBlockList:" and the list of numbers and hex IDs at the end. Find the same hex number, to use the example "0x0C:". There will be three hex numbers next to it - the Type, Group, and Instance IDs (TGI). (You need the Instance ID, which is the last and longest one.)
3. Now find the VPXY file that has the same instance ID. (It will have a different Type ID - just ignore that. TLDR: the CASP points to the BBLN, which points to a VPXY with the same Instance ID.)
4. Click the VPXY file. In the details display, look about halfway down at the EntryList. There will be a list of EntryID and TGIIndexes. The EntryID number is the lod number of the morph mesh. The TGIIndex is the number of the entry in the TGIBlockList at the bottom where you can find the TGI of the actual morph mesh. For example, if the third entry in the EntryList is EntryID 0x01 and the TGIIndex is 0x00000002, I look in the TGIBlockList at the bottom, find number [2], and the three hex codes next to it are the TGI of my lod 1 morph mesh.
5. Now find the GEOM with the same Instance ID (again, the last and longest hex number) and there's your morph mesh.

Confusing, I know, but after a little practice it's not too bad.
Old 18th Jul 2011, 1:41 AM #15
spatulageekgirl
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Yeah, took a few re-reads but I've got it. Once it has formed in my head as meanings and picture rather than strings of letters and numbers, it'll come naturally.

So, now I've got it, I import it into milkshape, over the base mesh (right?), rename it (what do I call them?), use your morphmatcher, and import back into workshop? Sounds do-able.
Old 18th Jul 2011, 2:35 AM #16
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Basically, yes, except MorphMatcher is separate from Milkshape. Make sure you have the modified base mesh and the original morph meshes, plug them into MorphMatcher, leave the option to renumber checked, and save a new, renumbered base mesh and new morph meshes. Then you can import the new renumbered base mesh into Milkshape and the new morph meshes on top of it. They will show up as different groups in the groups tab. Rename the morphs so you can easily tell them apart - any names will do.

This is all assuming you're working with meshes exported directly from the package - TSRW seems to export them without the vertex IDs that MorphMatcher needs although I think if you export a package with TSRW the meshes will be in the proper format with vertex IDs. I'm working on an addition to MorphMatcher to handle that situation but it'll be a little while. If you need it now I'll try to hurry it up.

Edit: I may have to take back the paragraph above - if you edit a mesh that has no vertex IDs, unless you don't change any vertex positions or normals my tool won't have any way to match them up with the original morph mesh vertices. You really have to work with a numbered mesh.
Last edited by CmarNYC : 18th Jul 2011 at 11:51 AM.
Old 18th Jul 2011, 3:09 AM #17
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I should be able to just export my new meshes as sims3packs and extract the package files from there. I'll let you know if I run into any trouble.
Old 18th Jul 2011, 5:35 PM #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spatulageekgirl
Yeah, took a few re-reads but I've got it. Once it has formed in my head as meanings and picture rather than strings of letters and numbers, it'll come naturally.

So, now I've got it, I import it into milkshape, over the base mesh (right?), rename it (what do I call them?), use your morphmatcher, and import back into workshop? Sounds do-able.


Do a test first because in the past it wasn't possible to export a GEOM with S3PE or Postal and use that GEOM in TSRW.(after converted with Milkshape)
Wes his plugin and TSRW's plugin use a diffrent joint order.
I included a ms3d file that lets you convert both formats
You open the file first, then import a GEOM
I renamed the joints on the skeleton
You then can export the file as WSO(TSRW) file

http://www.2shared.com/file/3edP1pi...l?cau2=403tNull
Last edited by BloomsBase : 18th Jul 2011 at 6:16 PM.
Old 19th Jul 2011, 12:58 PM #19
CmarNYC
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Bloom, I'm confused about this:

Are the game meshes and the TSRW meshes only incompatible because of the order of the joints in the skeleton? I don't really understand that - the bones are assigned to joints by joint number/name, aren't they? Why does the order of the joints make a difference?

How is a WSO mesh different from simgeom? Is it only that the vertex IDs are missing? Does WSO mean Workshop something something?

Sigh, I guess I'm going to have to install TSRW so I can test how my tools work with Workshop.

Edit: Never mind, I found a format specification for WSO files. They're basically the vertex and bone information for the base and the morphs rolled into one with the header and TGI stuff missing. (Another reason they're incompatible?) I'm going to look into adapting my tools to work with them.
Last edited by CmarNYC : 20th Jul 2011 at 2:35 AM.
Old 20th Jul 2011, 11:19 PM #20
spatulageekgirl
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Oh dear. What did I do wrong?
Old 21st Jul 2011, 1:05 PM #21
CmarNYC
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Yikes! What did you do? Please describe the steps you went through that resulted in this.
Old 21st Jul 2011, 8:27 PM #22
spatulageekgirl
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Well, I'd saved the original fat morph geom. I then exported my edited base mesh from workshop in pack format, used the multi-installer to turn it into package format, ran it through compressorizer, opened it in S3pe, saved the LOD1 geom from that package and ran the two of them through morph-matcher.

It's fascinating really, it's the exact deformation seen in my in-game screenshots.
Old 22nd Jul 2011, 1:13 AM #23
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Ah, I wasn't paying attention properly the first time. Tried it again and there was an error when importing the renumbered basemesh into milkshape. No bone file, default skeleton used, no hashed bone something-or-other. Tried the WSO skeleton thing, tried morph-matcher again and got the same deformation, though it fixed the hashed bone error. Was I using it right?
Old 22nd Jul 2011, 11:53 AM #24
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The 'no skeleton' error is normal, and the simgeom importer uses a default skeleton. The hashed bone error is also almost always not an issue and you can ignore it. However, maybe differences between the simgeom skeleton and the TSRW-generated skeleton is being a problem although I still don't see how bone order would cause these issues.

Did you save the original game morph mesh and use it in MorphMatcher with the TSRW-generated base mesh? Because I have the feeling TSRW renumbers the meshes (I recall Bloom said it renumbers on import), and if the numbers have been changed MorphMatcher won't match the vertices properly and IMO you'd get exactly this kind of random distortion. Can you upload the base mesh and morph mesh you're using so I can look?

This weekend I should have time to experiment some with TSRW and get a better handle on what it does with the meshes and hopefully how to get my tools to work with it. I'll update here.
Old 22nd Jul 2011, 2:03 PM #25
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That might be the problem, yeah. I can upload the meshes tomorrow (in a rush today, just about to hop a train). Thank you so much for being so helpful, I really appreciate it.
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