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Field Researcher
Original Poster
#1 Old 10th May 2010 at 11:48 AM
Default Gender Bender Sliders?!?!?!
I don't know if I have it in me to do the tasks needed.

But i've read alot about "cross-dressing" sims. and the want for them. I'd like access to the skirt meshes and such for men as well. So how would and does anyone have the talent desire to make a set of sliders for the neck wrists and ankles to make them blend between the larger male and smaller female meshes?

Seems this is the real limit to cross gender meshes.

I'd like to build a world, a better world.
Guess I'll start here...
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Ms. Byte (Deceased)
#2 Old 10th May 2010 at 11:57 AM
Probably the best way to do this is to modify the female meshes to fit a male frame - broaden the shoulders, narrow the hips, make the ankles bigger to match the male feet, etc. (And convert female shoes to male, come of think of it.) Hands are part of the body meshes so you'd need to make the whole hand bigger, not just the wrist. Custom sliders don't work for bodies except in a few specialized cases. It's a lot of work and would have to be done for each mesh you want to convert.
Field Researcher
Original Poster
#3 Old 10th May 2010 at 3:46 PM
So how do all these custom sliders work on the calf, waist, butt, thigh, ect...? Are the ones made already the "specialized" ones? It seems there has to be a way to just use slider's. there are several neck sliders so why can't i have one that makes the neck skinny / wide? there is a foot slider... and so i see no reason why a "hand" slider is so imposable?

Please clarify "except in a few specialized cases" cause i have like 20-something sliders so far, one for GLASSES. and that does not seem to be a "specialized case".

Conversion over every mesh is a ridiculously HUGE endeavor, with each mesh containing a base, thin fat fit special each that would have to be custom changed... then i'd have to fight with CTU, and i never seem to get that to work right. TSR workcrap rejects any custom mesh i try and make.

I rock a 3d meshes, but getting them into the sim's is a pain.

I can use the female clothes (as many have/are) just set as male. The variance of neck wrist and ankle is subtle "in game" this is why it just seems to me... wrists should be easy or hell why not a "glove" slider? there is the glasses one..., you seem to be telling me the 3 areas i want a slider for can't be done. Or are you telling me you just think it better to convert a million meshes?

As i have pulled a ton of the meshes apart and i have tick switched them, the "points on connection at waist, wrist and ankle" seem pretty standard.... The only real variances i see are between top and bottom and outfit.

also why do i HAVE to make the hand bigger? the butt is part of the body too but the waist line is independent.... that makes no since.

I'd like to build a world, a better world.
Guess I'll start here...
Sockpuppet
#4 Old 10th May 2010 at 4:06 PM
I think it would be easier to request a gender hack so males will act as females and vice versa(like the sims 2 insimenator had)
I haven't tried converting a mesh but i suspect the fat/fit and thin slider will keep messing up the neck unless the ratios between both male and female default/fat/fit and thin are identical
Field Researcher
Original Poster
#5 Old 10th May 2010 at 4:20 PM
hummm.. still seems there is just something being overlooked, that could do this easier than a full conversion of a ton of meshes. Thanks for the input. I've asked around among so Europeans, and they say what you just did. It may be easier to make it so a male sim will just load a female body. I am not looking for this to have girlie boys.... I want togas, and robes and dressing gowns and other period clothes that base meshes for females would be ideal for. Japanese male ware for one.

I'd like to build a world, a better world.
Guess I'll start here...
Lab Assistant
#6 Old 11th May 2010 at 1:01 AM
Fixing the mesh seams via slider is just unrealistic, if not impossible. You'd need an incredibly high level of accuracy, and just the thought of doing that without any sort of visual preview is pretty awful. Any bone-based sliders, even if you manage to get them to make female meshes look more masculine, would only work properly with the female meshes. Actual male meshes would end up hideously distorted.

The only way to do this and have it look good is to edit the meshes.
Field Researcher
Original Poster
#7 Old 11th May 2010 at 3:08 AM
Ok then, I belive you all that it's "impossible" and "unrealistic", guess it's just like Skylights.... I still don't understand why though, as a slider is a morph and that's what i want to morph say the neck just a little (smaller on a man, wider on a woman), it's not that big a difference. same with the other locations... but you all seem to agree it cannot be done. I understand that it would not wham make EVERY outfit look great on EVERY sim, you would have to tweek individually. changing all the meshes seems no different. just permanent. Guess sliders don't do what i thought they do or i just has stupid ideas. i give this one up....

I'd like to build a world, a better world.
Guess I'll start here...
Lab Assistant
#8 Old 11th May 2010 at 7:59 AM
I'll try to explain it.

There's two different kinds of morphs: bone based and geometry based. Bone based sliders work by transforming vertices assigned to the given bone, and will affect any body mesh you use. These would be the various body shaping sliders (hips, etc). Geometry based sliders require a morph target mesh to be created. An example of that one would be the elf ear slider. Every single face mesh has to have this morph target created.

In order to have any decent level of accuracy in addition to not messing up normal male meshes, you'd have to go with the second type, which takes you back to having to rework every single mesh. However, I'm not sure whether the geom based morphs are even valid with the body meshes. If they are, then it may be possible to add female meshes flagged as available for males with CTU, then add the morphs for every single mesh you want to use.
Ms. Byte (Deceased)
#9 Old 11th May 2010 at 1:37 PM Last edited by CmarNYC : 11th May 2010 at 2:05 PM.
To expand a little:

Yes, you could use bone-based sliders to make the body mesh necks, hands, ankles, feet, etc. larger. However, at least in the case of the neck, making the neck bone bigger would also affect the head mesh and you'd never get the two to match up without reshaping the meshes. From the neck down - you have a point that it's possible in theory to use the bones to make female meshes look more masculine, but it would be horrendous work to get the kind of detail that would make them look good. Bone sliders are extremely tricky when you're working with the whole body. The hands and feet especially tend to start trembling when you work with the bones in those areas. Look how difficult it's been just to get working height sliders. There'd also be side effects: your cross-dressing sim would have to wear women's clothing full-time since the slider would distort male clothing, and any children he has would have a 50-50 chance of inheriting the morph. Still, while I'm not at all sure it would be less work than converting and modifying a set of female meshes, it might be interesting to try.

In my previous post I was talking about geometry-based sliders. These unfortunately don't work with body meshes because they depend on identifying each vertex by its number ID in order to know how to move that vertex when the morph is applied. In the body meshes the vertex numbering is different for each mesh. They start with the same numbers (5000 for tops and full bodies, 15000 for bottoms, I don't recall the numbers for shoes and hair) but each mesh may have a different number of vertices in a different order. Try applying the same geom morph to all of them and you get distortion, to put it mildly.

Lastly, the specialized cases I referred to are meshes including a part using a range of numbers outside the ranges used by tops, bodies, bottoms, shoes, and hair. It's possible to create such a mesh, or meshes, and have a geom slider that will affect those vertices properly as long as the numbering is not changed. I know of only one working example of this which has not been released, at least not yet - it's a male nude bottom with a certain added part made with specially numbered vertices, making it adjustable with CAS sliders.
Sockpuppet
#10 Old 11th May 2010 at 1:52 PM
It would have been possible to create a slider that repositions the female head to a male outfit if the head was assigned to a single bone and the neck was assigned to a single bone.
But the seam were both parts should connect is assigned to both the head and neck bones so you never can get them together as the slider will change the seam positions on both the head and outfit at the same time.

I thought about scaling them together but the seams between female and male are shaped diffrent so that aint possible either...

If you really want to pull this off you should create a fake neck as accesoire that covers the gap and a slider that scales/lowers the head and neck a little.....
Cant think of anything else, except editing the meshes themselves.
Field Researcher
Original Poster
#11 Old 11th May 2010 at 2:12 PM
W00t! Thank you Cmar and thank you base... I understand more about why it was said to be sooo "impossible" and now see it is just assumption to some degree cause no one wanted to "think outside the box", and partly it is very complex.

@base A neck accessory! that's a good idea.

I'd like to build a world, a better world.
Guess I'll start here...
Lab Assistant
#12 Old 11th May 2010 at 7:39 PM Last edited by ZippyZX3 : 11th May 2010 at 8:05 PM.
I've already done this. Major work. Spent 2 weeks on just 1 mesh and still can not get the wrists and neck perfect. I've only done the base nude meshes. Haven't started on the others yet like dresses and such.

Then you have the UV mapping to worry about. Many more hours after you finish the mesh.

I've been using TSR Workshop and Milkshape to make mine. I just pick a Female clothing I like and import my mesh into it. Then export as a package then use Milkshape again to fix the UV mapping. Some have come out looking pretty good. But like I said, The wrists are neck are not perfect, Wrinkly.

The only problem with doing this this way, The males will have the female breasts.



I've also created an UV map just for this purpose. Don't include it in your finished package.
!amBodyUVmap.rar
Sockpuppet
#13 Old 11th May 2010 at 9:17 PM
yes, its alot of work
You need to fix the neck with making new Bgeo files so they are compatible with the sliders.
Since the meshes have breast bones you should be able to shrink em down with Jonha's or Delphy's sliders.
Ill look if a fake neck and a slider is possible.
Lab Assistant
#14 Old 11th May 2010 at 11:20 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Base1980
yes, its alot of work
You need to fix the neck with making new Bgeo files so they are compatible with the sliders.
Since the meshes have breast bones you should be able to shrink em down with Jonha's or Delphy's sliders.
Ill look if a fake neck and a slider is possible.


Once you've put the female meshes in as male the breast sliders don't work. Wish they did tho.

What is a Bgeo file?

Tim
Sockpuppet
#15 Old 12th May 2010 at 12:27 AM Last edited by Base1980 : 12th May 2010 at 12:51 AM.
Oh...both Jonha's and Delphy's?
A Bgeo file is a file that contains the morph(fat/fit and thin) data and needs to be updated with a conversion(or any other custom mesh)
I made a neckfix as accesoire for a female to male conversion and the normal/fat and thin seam aren't that bad.
The fit does look ridiculous tho......
Not sure wat your wrist error is, looks fine on my conversions.(cloned female outfits(top,bottom and shoes) set to male with CTU)

Best is to link the skintone to the females unless you want to have a male chest.
I was more thinking about transvestite conversions then actual make em 100% male

Edit,
Quote:
Best is to link the skintone to the females unless you want to have a male chest.

Oh, thats not working....somehow the femaleskin gets overruled by the male..
Screenshots
Lab Assistant
#16 Old 12th May 2010 at 4:46 AM Last edited by ZippyZX3 : 12th May 2010 at 4:57 AM.
Quote: Originally posted by Base1980
Oh...both Jonha's and Delphy's?
A Bgeo file is a file that contains the morph(fat/fit and thin) data and needs to be updated with a conversion(or any other custom mesh)

Yep, The sliders don't work on the converted female meshes to male.

Ahh, Then the TSRW wso should be a Bgeo file then. There are 5 separate meshes in the wso file. The wso file contains the Base, Fat, Thin, Fit, and Special mesh.

Just a note. To anyone else using TSRW to mesh, You need to extract all the meshes from the wso and edit them one at a time. If you leave them all together and edit the wso file when you re-import them they will look fine in TSRW but in the game they are way out of wack. Major zig-zags and spikes.

Quote: Originally posted by Base1980
Best is to link the skintone to the females unless you want to have a male chest.
I was more thinking about transvestite conversions then actual make em 100% male

Edit,

Oh, thats not working....somehow the femaleskin gets overruled by the male..

I already did that. But I used a female skintone for my male default base. I used LadyFrontbum's Naughty skintones.

Here's my wso file for the male tops. 95% done (Messed up neck and wrist.).

Number 6 at trying to make the perfect meshes.

I've started converted the female tops (Cloths) to the male meshes. But tried to uploading one here but it got rejected.

Forgot to add. The version of TSRW that I'm using. TSRW_RC4, No v2 or v3. The newer versions don't work well.

Tim
Attached files:
File Type: rar  !MaleBoobsUpperBodyDone6.wso.rar (244.6 KB, 209 downloads) - View custom content
Description: Top female TSRW mesh for the males
Sockpuppet
#17 Old 15th May 2010 at 7:01 PM Last edited by Base1980 : 15th May 2010 at 8:38 PM.
I dont use TSRW, prefer CTU The WSO file does contain the morphs wich should be updated, when done you can use them to make new Bgeo files for the sliders.(with Cmar's bodymorphmaker)
But i think i can pull this off so female outfits can be used on males, without editing anything.

Edit,

Finished the Transgender project(female to male)
http://www.bloomsbase.net/index.php.../11-transgender

Quote: Originally posted by ZippyZX3
Once you've put the female meshes in as male the breast sliders don't work. Wish they did tho.
Tim


I made new files with the settings of Delphy's breastsliders but set to male.
You find them at my site
Scholar
#18 Old 15th May 2010 at 9:22 PM
Woo-hoo! Thanks for this Bloom - just went to your site and downloaded! Awesome stuff - now some of my real-life friends can be done in my game

...Titanium white...
Field Researcher
Original Poster
#19 Old 15th May 2010 at 11:31 PM
I KNEW there could be ways of doing this! Thanks Bloom!!! you rock.

I'd like to build a world, a better world.
Guess I'll start here...
Sockpuppet
#20 Old 16th May 2010 at 12:18 AM
Quote: Originally posted by ashillion
I KNEW there could be ways of doing this! Thanks Bloom!!! you rock.


I dont think this is wat you had in mind tho....
Lab Assistant
#21 Old 16th May 2010 at 1:23 AM Last edited by ZippyZX3 : 16th May 2010 at 2:04 AM.
Your sliders work with my mesh Your neck looks better than I could do too. Well at least I learned alot about Milkshape and UV mapping.

Tim
Sockpuppet
#22 Old 16th May 2010 at 2:42 AM
Quote: Originally posted by ZippyZX3
Your sliders work with my mesh Your neck looks better than I could do too. Well at least I learned alot about Milkshape and UV mapping.

Tim


I am sorry Zippy, i know you spent alot of time in doing your conversions.
But i hope you agree that this works easier and gives people more options.
Lab Assistant
#23 Old 16th May 2010 at 5:54 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Base1980
I am sorry Zippy, i know you spent alot of time in doing your conversions.
But i hope you agree that this works easier and gives people more options.


Yes, Much better. But I still like the Top's I made. I can use a female top and male bottom.

I'm still just a beginner at meshing. Those were my very first meshes and using Milkshape.

I already had all the female clothing, Shoes, and Accessory's set for the Males. Did that long time ago. So I'm just using your sliders and neck fix.

Tim :D
Banned
#24 Old 26th May 2010 at 12:02 AM
It would seem that in many cases this could be accomplished by using female textures on male meshes. A number of outfits, like tanktops and certain shirts would seem to work with many of the male meshes. Or the male meshes could be slightly accomadated to work with the female textures.

There could be a problem with certain dresses and skirts. However, these might be resolved by creating a frankenmesh. With a skirt, for example, you might start with a nude male body, then wrap a skirt (filched from a female mesh) around it. That is what I have been doing to make raunchy female skirts which show some ass. For example, you might use the female mini-skirt -- and delete everything but the skirt parts. Then you use the data merge to attach the skirt to a male nude mesh. You can use the scale and move commands to make the lower layers of the skirt fit around the male body. Regroup, rename, add your texture and you have a male wearing a skirt.

You really would not have to have a lot of these meshes. For bottoms, for example, you might have a mini skirt, a mid length skirt and a long skirt. There are a variety of fancy tops, with things like puffy shoulders, but your probably don't need a lot of that.

I am thinking that the solution might actually be simpler than you think and might not require as much work as some of the other alternatives being discussed here. (like sliders)
Sockpuppet
#25 Old 26th May 2010 at 10:50 AM
Quote: Originally posted by tjstreak
It would seem that in many cases this could be accomplished by using female textures on male meshes. A number of outfits, like tanktops and certain shirts would seem to work with many of the male meshes. Or the male meshes could be slightly accomadated to work with the female textures.

There could be a problem with certain dresses and skirts. However, these might be resolved by creating a frankenmesh. With a skirt, for example, you might start with a nude male body, then wrap a skirt (filched from a female mesh) around it. That is what I have been doing to make raunchy female skirts which show some ass. For example, you might use the female mini-skirt -- and delete everything but the skirt parts. Then you use the data merge to attach the skirt to a male nude mesh. You can use the scale and move commands to make the lower layers of the skirt fit around the male body. Regroup, rename, add your texture and you have a male wearing a skirt.

You really would not have to have a lot of these meshes. For bottoms, for example, you might have a mini skirt, a mid length skirt and a long skirt. There are a variety of fancy tops, with things like puffy shoulders, but your probably don't need a lot of that.

I am thinking that the solution might actually be simpler than you think and might not require as much work as some of the other alternatives being discussed here. (like sliders)


No offence, but you really should try out wat you said....
Female and male textures are diffrent, you can not switch them without editing them.

Making a skirt layered arround a male body requiers that you also make the 4 morphs(and new Bgeo files) that come with it to make it compatible with the sliders.
Alot of work.
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