Brilliantly put kadeth. If creators would just allow the posting of their meshes with links, the whole problem is solved. Then instead of a frustrating experience for the downloader, it's a chance to find new content. That hour is spent browsing different sites instead of hunting for meshes.

I wonder how many people are just being rude and ignoring policies, or maybe they're just fed up with the hoops they're expected to jump through.

I totally agree. I'm in awe of some of the things I've seen on this site and I wouldn't want any of the artists to "take their toys and go home." I think it's generally understood in the civilized world that an artist has the right to dictate distribution policy on their creations. We may not always agree with that policy (music industry) but until policy changes that's just the way it is. I've thought about creating some things myself but I'm either to busy or to lazy so I'm very grateful to everyone who takes the time to make such great stuff. And remember everyone: donate to the site. Lets keep this place going.

I don't know what's happening in the community, here at MTS2 or outside. What is clear is that's something 'heavy', as a retirement before and your words now let me think. I have to say it is sad that also a game -this is sims2, not politcs or hunger in the world - can divide and make people dispute this way! What is true is that we are not children and the "I want it - I take it" is/should not be in our moods. As an uploader I am with you HP, you are not verbose - just say what you and many think is right to do with CC.; I must add we are lucky that you moderators check because it may happen something slips (I happened for distraction !) As a downloader I also understand Kadath, and that's why I avoid CC not included and, if this is not possible, external links for CC not included - I hate going from page to page to search meshes, this really bore me because I lose so much of my little time that I often give up.
the nameobject readme can be a solution. but better would be free meshes upload with link back. best that nobody claim as his/hers other hard work - I happen to be a victim in 'RL' and it was really upsetting, anybody who acts like this is really 'poor-minded'

I would like to add my thoughts on what HP has provided to us members. Instead of breaking it down into free vs pay again, wouldn't it be better to just say that all creators rights and TOU's should be respected? A creator is, first and foremost, a person and deserves the same courtesy that is afforded to any person. Courtesy dictates that, no matter what the purpose was, theft of their creation is never right.

Creators are basically the same. The majority of them create new meshes or do fabulous recolors because they love the game and they love creating. Some do put extensive TOU's on their items, but that is their right as a creator. For the record, I've seen paysite creators with very liberal TOU's and freesite creators with very extensive and tight ones.

It is not right, or in the community spirit, to say to respect one group's TOU's (freesites) and block another group's (paysites). All creator TOU's should be respected, and nothing should be pirated. After all, despite what the movies say, pirates are not good people. There's a reason that pirates were hung.

It does all come down to the "gimme, gimme" attitude so prevalent in the Sims community. There's a sense that one is entitled to any and all creations, and that is simply not so. No one is entitled to anything. If you want a creator's objects, obtain them legally and respect their TOU's. It is as simple as that.

I didn't say anything about paysites because I am not turning this into another paysite debate. There are whole sites based on that stuff where you can debate that to your heart's content.

Please do not turn this thread into another paysite debate. I advocate the use of all free content as does this site in general and I and most of the staff no longer use pay content in our games. We don't allow anything for upload that violates a creator's terms of use or uses their work without permission and credit, pay or free. It is because of not wanting this to turn into a pay vs. free thing that I didn't go into what I thought about it for paysites and I don't want it to get into that now. And I still don't. So please leave that out of this. I should hope that the overall message of respect for what people have made and finding something else if you don't want to use something with policies you don't like was obvious - you'll note that not once did I say 'but you can do what you want with paysite stuff' so please don't make it out like I was doing that, and let's save the debates on pay stuff for more appropriate forums.

HP I loved this article.. We've been struggling with this topic on another forum. Because even though I have a reasonably fast PC if I have too much stuff the pc slows down, I tend to stick to stuff that has "link and credit" terms in my game and that sticks to specific themes, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

I do think that free creators with less open terms can sometimes do themselves a disservice, because the creators who have sensible terms tend to be more popular than the creators who don't want their meshes going anywhere.

thank you HP for bring up this topic.
I myself have a small free sims 2 custom content website, and I try and make my terms of use fair.
I have not had anyone dis-respect my terms yet.and I think thats because my terms are fair.
I know also as downloader I hate having to search high and low for mesh's or links to content, that just takes all the fun out of it. that is why all my stuff is share friendly.

I found your post interesting HP, not just for your take on this, but it finally explained to me why mesh makers are so particular about redistribution of their meshes. I didn't realize that meshers have to sometimes update their meshes to keep up with the EP's and therefore would want to control mesh distribution for that reason. Oh duh! Makes me understand that policy now.

Also, it answers the question of why I have of late found object recolors that included PAY meshes with them. I had thought that maybe Peggy or Rose and so forth had decided to release certain of their pay meshes. Yes, naive, but then again I don't spend a whole lot of time on the forums other than to download so most of the strife I heard about goes over my head. I am only recently coming to understand there had been some huge blowout in the Sims community during the time I left to take care of my parents' cancer ordeal. So anyway, now I know that these meshes were NOT released by their creators and that people are just brazenly offering them because they feel the should be able to. I admit, I'm taken aback, I'm rather used to seeing terms of use strictly abided by on most websites, due to peer pressure if for no other reason. Wow, quite astonishing.

Thanks for bringing this all to light, HP. Now I will go and recheck my downloads to ensure I don't use these questionable contents in screen shots or future uploads of my own work.

As for the pirate type sites. I patronized one after being directed to it for a mesh for a recolor from a site I have always respected. At first I think the pirates had a noble idea, of sorts--I mean there are a couple of "artists" I can think of who, after I have examined the pirated version of their work, should be flogged for charging people for slapdash corner cutting crap. However, somehow I accidently ran across an essay by Numenor, explaining how the pirates were now hurting everyone attempting to control access to their work. Like redistributing what was meant as private gifts for a limited distribution where no money changes hands. The sense of entitlement has clearly gotten out of hand.

HP, thanks for your very eloquent and thoughtful post. It is very good timing and helps people like me who want to do the right thing but have been very confused about what we encounter as we go about just trying to innocently spruce up our game.

Personally, back when I had custom content posted, my policy was one of "Do whatever you want". I had that not because I felt my work was substandard, but because it's just such a sanity saver to not care too much about what someone is going to do with my work. I mean, if I can't walk up and b*tchslap them, may as well just let it go. I mean, that's me, I understand being that laid back isn't going to work for everyone.

One thing--addressing a comment in a different post-- in defense of the "kids" in the Sims community--they're not all selfish and id-driven little thieves. And even the ones who are like that now... usually do eventually grow up and get with the program. Some of those kids out there have been so incredibly helpful, supportive and free with their natural talent and limited time and youthful creativity. Frankly I have seen more brazen thievery and overblown boasting from the adults--adults who sometimes charge for their work, no less.

The entire "TOU" nonsense is counter to the community spirit, period. This sort of nonsense occurs only HERE, in the SIMS. WHY? Because we've allowed divas and attention whores to run the show to the point where people now think this sort of behavior is NORMAL. If anything, this needs to be firmly and forcefully stomped on without mercy. This sort of nonsense is an annoyance to everyone and a drain on bandwidth and system resources for everyone involved. What's more, it feeds on itself, and is unenforceable anyway. Why bother? I don't even *HAVE* a "TOU", because I think that they're ridiculous and stupid. Seriously, when does it end? It is one thing to request that people not plagiarize, but in the end, plagiarism isn't even a crime. Don't you people have anything better to do than go stalking the Internet looking for someone who MIGHT be hosting your stuff? It's not like most of you ever bother to update or FIX your buggy, badly-made, bloatware-infested crap, anyway. Every single one of these divas thinks their shit is gold, but I'm telling you: I've looked at their stuff. Every single thing I've seen is a bloated, crap-infested mess that has to be weeded out of all the extraneous garbage infesting it before it is even fit for use. As an average, I can reduce a piece of CC to half its size and IT WILL FUNCTION BETTER, too. Most of it is even broken. NEWSFLASH: Your shit stinks like everyone else's. Get over yourself.

Bolognium. That happens in maybe one or two isolated cases. The bulk of 99% of the people who make stuff NEVER BOTHER TO UPDATE ANYTHING. EVER. Not even when obvious bugs are reported. But you bet they'd throw an outright shitfit if someone fixed it FOR them: "OH NOES YOU FIXED MY BUGGY MISCATEGORIZED NON-SHOED CRAP! YOU ARE SO EVILS". And so on, and soforth. They can take their whiny, meaningless TOSen and shove 'em up their asses, I say. It'll go well with the stick that's already there.

Well...... there is something that seems some users have forgotten: support for our creation, compatibility with future EPs, update the code, fix bug, ecc ecc ecc

First: HP, thank you for the great explanation. Of course, I'm totally agree with you.

In my opinion, my policy is enough free.....
What users, like kadeth and rosaline for example and others, have forgotten is that NOT ALL the cc can be re-posted anywhere without any future risk for the downloaders.
I konw that is frustrating go from link to link to get an items and sometimes is very difficult find the right mesh, or the link doesn't work, ecc.
About bodymeshing, perhaps, the downloaders will never have problem with the mesh.
But the are many objects ( mods, hacks, global or not) that will need to be update for the new EPs by the creator.

So when I said : Do not clone, not repost anywhere but provide a link to the original thread, it's only to give the best support to all the users: in my opinion this is a serious way not a limited way. Only on my thread there will be update for fixing bug or compliance with new EPs.
Sometimes I have found my works ( or our: mine and Numenor's) reposted without any hint for their use, without any warning about compatibility, but instead with WRONG info about their usage in the game...... and I don't want anyone can have problem with my works without my assistance, even if who repost my works make it with own risk!
It's true that the downloaders should know what they download and what they make, but we know very well that this is not always.
About the lots, is the same thing: if you include hacks, mode or other that will need to be update the downloaders can't get the new versions and shold have some problems.
This game, as kadeth said, is different then others.... it's always in expansion and a creator should be update his works. I can see on the web really many works, also pay, that now are more limited or without compatibility with some new functions or, even worse, make the game crashing. So, in my opinion, tell "make what ever you want" is not the right way because more people, that will repost your work, can't understand and explain your work, and can't give support for future risks: this is why I choose mine policy like it is, not a criticism for who makes different choice of course.

I know very well that there are many people that don't respect the terms of creators, we can contact and ask to respect (lucky there are more downloaders that tell you when they found some violation of you police), but we can't stop them to continue. I think that should be the downloders to understand the difference between correct or not people and download only from correct sites/people.

About paysite, in my opinion...... no comment: they, simply, shouldn't exist; but at the same time also the pirate sites shouldn't exist: is not this the right way; again, should be the downloaders to understand they don't download from pay site to stop them; but if the people want to pay (noone is force to pay: it's a own free choice) for items that often are ugly (more peggy's free mesh are better then her pay )...... is not my problem, we can't stop them to pay for items....... we can suggest, but not stop.

Sorry for my English, is not my native language so be patient, please

Mary Lou, what you say has a lot of sense, and as i stated before in my post, yes, IF there's a real potential need of more or less constant updating of the resource, the "modular" release of a mod will without doubt be more helpful than not. I'm not contesting this point, what i'm contesting is : what really needs frequent updates, and what not? I don't even want to go down too much on the more provocative question of who, in the end, really updates their old CC instead of making totally new uploads or just forgetting everything and bye bye.

Then what really needs updates? Hacks, active objects, yeah, they do need it. Maxis itself often DON'T update their custom objects, but that's not the point. But will a body mesh, a recolor, an hair mesh, texture, a make up, an eye colour, a friggin pendant ever need an update? Unless there was some bug - and bugs will usually be discovered few days after the first release - it's very unlikely.
And, again, more often than not, when an author with his pretty website updates one of his old goodies, more than "updating" anything does publish a "new version", usually to be found on a new page, new link, under a different name. That totally defeat the suggested usefulness of uploads threads with links to the various third party resources : unless the uploader is still there to update his thread, you'll need to search, or even worse you'll never know that there's a new version of that mesh around.
But then, if the uploader is there to update a link, wouldn't he be there, in an easier fashion for everyone, to just update his rar removing the old CC and putting in the new mesh, or what-it-was?

These "crossed downloads", in the end, still work only if both the authors of the single resources and the author of the derivate uploads are still active in the community and follow each other developings. The exact same basic need of a way simpler habit of personally updating the .rar you're sharing with everything needed when needed.

What J.M. Pescado initially said, although in a really grouchy way :p, strikes to the point. This common conduct is definitely not normal. Sometimes, maybe, there's a reason that makes sense, but much more often that not, it's not really justified, and excuses apart seems just an habit of bathe in your selfpride, flattering yourself forcing people to spam your name (not even your name, your friggin nickname, damn! ) and/or your site, to glorify now and forever your sublime creative talent.
For a mesh. Or a make up. For a game. Of dolls.
Come on... :P


P.S. Don't worry Mary, between me and you we are nicely killing the english language, but... non è colpa nostra se a scuola ce lo insegnano male in Italia :P

Wow. Ok then. I'm not addressing every single point, because it would just be another dramatic rehash. Been there, done that. Ad nauseum.

This thread really isn’t about all artists in this community and the respect they deserve, it’s about the philosophy/politics of MTS2 admin/staff and was certainly brought up for a reason. I’m interested in seeing how MTS2's policy may change as a result of HP’s post, because this surely opens that door. The initial post is more a call to arms for those who support this statement in it's (literal and figurative) entirety to contact creators with more restrictive policies and ask them to loosen up...“in a way that isn’t going to anger them” of course. Noted. We'll see what happens with that.

On a broader note, I appreciate clear policies and look forward to further clarification here. It's common sense for sites that offer downloads based on other people's work to have a clear policy for uploading, whether that policy is “anything goes because paysites are breaking the law!” or “please read this encyclopedia of legal terminology before you offer your t-shirt recolor for upload on our FREE site” or something in between.

Since I cannot state my opinion on either of these extremes, I’ll simply say this: sites that want the respect of all creators and artists should promote the respect of all creators and artists.

To exclude an entire category of creators, through the precise wording of the initial statement, means this is not yet another community-wide drama, merely MTS2 testing the waters for a policy change. I'm looking forward to seeing the result.

Well, it's not really a policy change. MTS2 doesn't allow uploads that result in the breaking of TOS of anyone, pay or free. I think that's pretty neutral and good.
However they don't intend to cater to dramatic behaviour, so if you go GRRROWL THEY TOOK ME STUFF I'M DELETING EVERYTHING AND LEAVING!!!EINZ AND IT'S ALL THIS PERSONS FAULT and post it in every thread you uploaded, deleting the download, you will get an earfull and a nice 'shut up and goodbye, if you treat people this way they don't need you'. Wich is good too. And yes, I've seen creators do this :S

Sometimes, I think that creators don't realize they're making things difficult until it's pointed out to them. I also think that if everyone was careful to credit where they got things from, it wouldn't be a big deal. I take apart a lot of other creations to see how it's done and I've noticed that some of the biggest drama divas, freely borrow from others or maxis and just don't credit them. Then they get all snippy and possessive if someone does what they already did.

The creators who have weird policies need to be aware of the ulcers they cause.. people have limited time to Sim and trying to work out what someone wants sometimes will cause people to give up and not revisit your page. It would be a whole lot easier if people
1) remembered to post their terms somewhere visible
2) created a realistic set of terms that don't put too much pressure on your downloaders and
3) provided a means of contacting people if you don't make your terms clear on your page.

Marylou I used to not mind the "post a link to my mesh" thing, then I did a project with someone that took me ages (I'm not a quick creator) only to find they used meshes I couldn't share on my site. I did the "post a link to get the mesh" thing, then they moved the meshes around twice to the point that noone could find them at all, which made my work totally useless. You can understand my annoyance.

So I won't use something if it's a "don't share it on" mesh because I'm not wasting hours of my time.. and I might not be a mesh creator, but trust me, I spend hours getting my stuff right these days.

I'm very careful if I use something, I make sure it's properly credited, and I'll make sure the creator's terms allow it. It's just the way I think, it's all about respect. I think I might be in the minority these days.

The thing is though, it makes it easier for me to walk away from free creators who don't allow any kind of redistribution because I think they're cutting off their nose to spite their face. Most of the people who get really popular usually have open sharing terms (like our Nouk further up the thread) So if they want their stuff to (in most cases) stay an obscure niche market, that's up to them.

Out of respect for people in the Sims community, people need to streamline their terms a little to make it easier on their fellow simmers.

Well there are two sides to every story and I see merit in both opposing points of view. I myself, when I get back to posting my newest stuff, will remain "open" with a do whatever you want policy. I have a point of view on it that the kind of work I do is merely editing copyrighted photos I take off the web. Granted I put in so much reprocessing that the end product bears no resemblance to the incredibly crappy web photos I work with, but still, I'm building off of work that either Maxis or some photographer did, as well as all the people who made it possible to customize at all. So why on earth should I fuss if somebody takes the nose off one of my skins and makes a new skin with it. It seems petty and self -defeating to me. I mean, isn't it gratifiying to see your work used and built upon? I think it is, and since SummerSong is not my name even remotely, well LOL--why do I care if I see it "up in lights" on the internet. That's MY opinion of MY work. That is all I am responsible for, my own opinion, my own work. For me to dictate how another person should feel about their work is rather presumptuous. I'm not them. I don't know how they were raised, what they go through in a typical day to shape their feelings. So live and let live. I get as frustrated as anybody else at restrictive TOU's...but that just moves me to be more creative on my own and learn new techniques to achieve the results I like if I want to share what I make.

If the community is to function at all, we have to respect each other's diverse opinions and accomodate them as best we can. If we are not willing to honor someone's terms of use, no matter how ridiculous or egotistical it may seem, then don't use that person's work and instead use the work of somebody who sees things the way you do.

There are some "divas" out there who sorry to say, make some stuff I really like, LOL! So, I will use their things in my game according to their wishes, to placate/respect their feelings and encourage them to continue their work in their own eccentric way, but I wouldn't touch it when trying to make my own project.

As for piracy, I'm still trying to wrap my mind around that one. People, myself included, have been "hurt" by paying for items (especially for Sims1) that were just awful. Since the paysites are violating EA EULA or whatever it is called, then I do commend SOME of the pirates for trying to hold the pay sites accountable for their actions. However, as with all good ideas or honorable intentions, things will tend to be taken to extreme before things settle to the middle where they should be. Everyone really needs to fully think out if they want to be part of such a controversial and potentially damaging "movement".

I hope I make sense. My daughter is watching Miss Spider's Sunny Patch friends and making nonstop commentary so my brain is kinda spinning as I type this.

I don't know if I should edit my existing post to add this, but it's a different point so I guess it's okay to leave it separate? Maybe we are going too overboard picking apart a very simple statement by HP. Like I had said, there are now sites out there offering meshes packaged with recolors, sometimes with credit, sometimes without, and they are even doing this with pay meshes, which likely indicates that the meshes were not released for redistribution. I have seen this and was absolutely puzzled about it, but being the kind of person who generally sees the good in people, thought that the people doing this had some kind of agreement with the meshmaker. It is very good of HP to let us know this is not necessarily so. It's a good heads-up to those of us who really don't pay attention to all the nuances of the "artist community". Most of us after all just go to get nice looking stuff, or create nice looking stuff and are totally oblivious to all the strings that are attached.

And I think most of us, at least those of us who take the time to post and thank creators, want to do the "right thing". Even if the right thing seems silly and is merely a consensus on how the majority feels things "ought" to be done, not necessarily what we think makes the best sense. To me, the right thing is to make nice things, share nice things, without hurting people's feelings or making them feel taken advantage of. If that means following restrictive terms, so be it. Kindness and respect should not be a rare commodity in any community. It costs only a little bit extra effort to put somebody's feelings before your own. If you have a gripe, vent away. I do. But don't subject someone to what in their mind seems like a violation or robbery.

That said, artists who pitch the equivalent of a hissy fit when they find someone innocently and honestly violated their terms should take a step back and remember respect is best taught by example.

Well said Hp.

I was going to post more than I will. Somehow the thread got hijacked a few posts back. I will just add the simple statement that the biggest drama queens are not necessarily the ones that spring to mind, most drama queens are, in fact, not female at all. Shame because you had and still have a very valid point. So thankyou for stating something that needed to be said.

Just to add on to what you said:

Sad part is, most of those people aren't even teenagers, either. You've got fully grown men and women who do as they please in this case.

In some ways, yes we all tend to have that "selfish entitlement" in us... I'll admit, I even think that way sometimes. While I do believe in a "free-for-all" distribution policy for some, I heavily believe in respecting a creator's wishes moreso than the former... but it really does depend on how much the creator has respect and faith in their fanbase, also. As I've been taught: "You've got to give respect in order to get it." The Golden Rule FTW.

If someone has that policy with the "not for use on fat sims" or "don't edit or recolor my stuff for any reasons because it's already perfect" stuff in it, ( ) then I see it as something to avoid at all costs... because if I can't even edit the textures for my own personal use in my game, then that tells me the creator has little faith in the downloaders... which is kind of a downer to me. (... this is mainly geared towards certain artists do that method of disabling exportation of textures in Bodyshop. Lack of trust is depressing.)

What good is it going to do us if everyone is going to make things difficult for each other? (meaning hoops, chutes, and ladders for TOS from the creators, and the non-reading, "just don't care cuz I wantz" people who ignore them.) It's just not good for anyone in that case. Just like it's been said, if everyone works together on this (downloaders, creators, and violators alike) we might see a change down the road. May not be immediate, but if people are willing to try it, it's a definite start.

Boy I'm sure glad I just recolor Maxi's default stuff :P

I do not go for forums but I felt there are some drama queens/kings all around me and pirates! also pirates
well, stupidity always beat me (referred to pirates) and drama oblige me to stop and ask why (all people, and thus all creators -pay or free- have the same rights, haven't they?)
I respect creators and their work and the reasons coming with their policies, whatever they are. the matter is: how a pirate can be stopped to steal from pay-sites? how people stealing free creators can be stopped too? I think the reason why I have stopped surfing much other sites is MTS2 seriousness and sense of responsability to all users, just like if all we are a big company's customers: so this is the way, just do what we think it is correct and avoid to do what would upset us. if we take this as a mission, I mean - we do not steal, we contact pirates and stealers and try to make them come to reason, we advise creators we found out their work was stolen, and do all this without loosing serenity and trust, then some agreement can be found maybe, also with paysites (I do not judge the people who prefer them) - be altogether to win our goals, that's the way - and respect all ideas and ways of living/thinking/etc, stating that my freedom ends where yours begins, and viceversa hope I was clear - pls pardon possible Italianism and, maybe, if I am a bit naive

I deleted my earlier comment to avoid flaring the paysite debate. However, I'm getting tired of the pro-side freely airing their views. That's not what we're talking about here, it has no relevance. MTS2 doesn't allow any posting of paysite meshes, you can't even put pictures of pay items in your uploads, so that's not the issue here. The issue is what should the standard be for free creators.

Because it's logically ludicrous? You can't "steal" something that is free!

The community is better off without those drama queens. If they want to soup, let them. As people keep pointing out, there are plenty of others. The point must be made that this sort of behavior should no longer be tolerated, and if it means a few of the whiners soup, so be it. You can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs.

H.P., I commend you for your courage. I would never have the guts to post something like this, but I appreciate it.

I don't make things- I have tried (ewwww) and I have great respect for the fantastic artists that make my game interesting. Without you, I don't want to play. Losing people over something so silly (sorry, it is, after all and all obsessions aside, a game) hurts: it hurts me and the community as a whole. Without the fantastic creators who's policies on free play made it possible for modding Sims in the first place, we would still be staring at pixelated, cartoony, and vastly less interesting sims.

I should hope that everyone has enough politeness is their soul to respect a creator's individual creativity and wishes. After all, it is that very idea, the fantastic and normal things that they create, which make our games special. This community is very special to me: I saw it begin years ago and I hope it will continue. This is my homepage: no matter where in the world people are, we are all coming here together to enjoy what everyone has to offer. If any one person were to leave because they fell violated it will fall apart.

Several years ago, Numenor posted about an experience he had over someone stealing his work. He continues (many blessings heaped upon him for his creations!) to create and enhance our game. I apologize to him for bringing this up, but I remember how appalled we were then that someone had the gall to do that! Now, we sigh and carry on.

Thank you again, H.P., for reminding us how much we would miss this if it were gone. I intend to be here for a very long time- as long as one server continues to try and work, I'll be here, trying to download and post. And trying. Trying. Hey- I got it!

Al

This thread is not about pay sites or pay content. I am concentrating on free sites because this is a free site which advocates the use of all free content and I don't think you should use paysite content AT ALL. I am not bringing paysites into this because I do not want this to be just another paysite debate.

There are whole other forums for debating the use of pay content - we don't do pay content here at all. We also do not not allow people to post work that is in violation of the creator's terms of use or without permission - no matter who they are - and this is not a new thing - no change of policies is required because that is our current policy and says nowhere on it "but it's okay if it's pay stuff" nor did my above post say that. Yes, I won't deny that I have a heck of a lot more respect for free creators in general because they're giving without wanting anything in return the politics of pay content do not belong here. This was not intended to be a pay vs. free anything and that argument has too much -other- stuff wrapped up in it to be lumped in here.

If you want to debate about the intricacies of taking a pay creator's work and using it without permission/links/credit please take yourself to one of the forums based on the whole paysite thing and do it there.

I did not want a point about the common courtesy of providing links and credits for freely-available things, or getting permission when necessary - and having nice open policies to allow people to use your stuff - getting derailed with the same old "But paysites are bad, we can do what we want with paysite stuff!" "Yes we can!" "No you can't!" which has been debated to death in more appropriate forums.

Again, please do not derail this thread with off-topic paysite-related stuff...


NOW THEN... *clears throat*

I completely agree with the points made above about having good file descriptions and good readme filenames so stuff can be found. And I certainly don't want it to seem like I think any policy no matter what it is, is fair. I think we should tend to allow people to use our work pretty freely with links and credit as a rule, and that it'd be a heck of a lot easier to do things that way than if everyone wanted permission for everything - nice open policies are a good thing, and if you want to say "do whatever you want with my stuff" then go right ahead. But if you don't and just feel like being stuffy with extremely over-restrictive policies, well, knock it off - or don't be terribly surprised when people don't bother with your work in favour of someone else who's not so restrictive.

JM - Of course you can steal free stuff - if someone puts up a drawing online and says "You can view this on your computer, set it as your background, even print it out and hang it on your wall, but if you want to modify it or use it commercially or use it for a publication or your website or something like that, please ask me first and give credit," it's still free, just free with limitations. But just because you -can- do something doesn't mean you -should-.

And if you don't like someone's soup because it's too bitchy, make your own soup as there's soupmaking recipes and help on making soup all over the place... or you can go eat someone else's soup as there's probably a similar recipe around somewhere as there's plenty of soup shacks around - one way or the other you aren't gonna starve if you don't eat the bitchy soup, but there's also no need to piss in the bitchy soupmaker's bowl just because you don't like the way they serve it. (Hey, I like metaphors, and I prefer soup to omelettes.)