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Not actually evil.
#51 Old 1st Aug 2009 at 1:04 AM
Popup? Disclaimer? What is it supposed to say? TSR is not responsible for content on other sites? You are about to go off-site? TSR, the site that features Evony ads and content such as Britney Spears performing a non-PG13 act with a whip, needs a disclaimer to link to MTS?

Curious, considering Thomas' stance on advertising on TSR. People have complained about the not PG13 ads that TSR shows, and Thomas' response has consistently been that he's in no way responsible for the ads he chooses to allow on his site. Is there a disclaimer or popup for those ads? If not, why would MTS, or any other site, need disclaimers?

I've read in this thread that the opposition to MTS links supposedly has to do with PG13 rating, even when the links go to completely innocent G rated threads. I wonder if there are other reasons for the opposition? Are other sites seen as business competitors? Is management concerned about paying customers leaving if they are exposed to what other sites offer?

My belief is that cross-site links greatly enrich a user's experience. I have discovered many great content sites, tutorials, and tools, by following non-MTS links. This has in no way whatsoever made me want to leave MTS or not download from MTS or not donate to MTS. If anything, it has raised my esteem for MTS. Any site that has its own great content, tutorials, and tools, needn't worry about linking elsewhere. Steve, Thomas, do you think TSR would benefit from off-site links?

Please spay or neuter your pets. --- Cat Music Video! --- my meshes
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Warrior Gryphon
site owner
#52 Old 1st Aug 2009 at 1:09 AM
Cat: It's really not Thomas who is in opposition to the external links, or who came up with the popup thing. It's somebody else internally... Let's just say theres internal politics at play here which affect what they do. The fact remains, however, that a promise was made, and a promise was broken, and that just leaves them in a bad position becuase it doesn't reflect well on TSRs efforts for so-called community collaboration when one of the things that is supposed to have happened weeks ago hasn't happened yet after multiple promises and we have no indication of when it will. Colour me disappointed... again. So, I'll guess we shall have to see... also, again.

Story books are full of fairy tales, of Kings and Queens, and the bluest skies.
One horse disagreer of the Apocalypse
#53 Old 1st Aug 2009 at 1:41 PM Last edited by Inge Jones : 1st Aug 2009 at 1:52 PM.
Quote: Originally posted by Delphy
Cat: It's really not Thomas who is in opposition to the external links, or who came up with the popup thing. It's somebody else internally...


Well, so we're led to believe. We haven't been at their meetings and really we have no idea whether what is being told to us represents what has been discussed in the privacy of their offices with a member of staff, or is simply a convenient excuse to back out of a too-hastily made (or even deliberately deceptive) agreement.

Personally I think the probability of a team of 5 business partners having policy dictated to them by a paid employee is ridiculous to the point of being hard to believe. If it *is* true, then we need to approach her directly next time we want to make any arrangements, and stop wasting time discussing things with middleman Thomas.

"You can do refraction by raymarching through the depth buffer" (c. Reddeyfish 2017)
Scholar
#54 Old 16th Aug 2009 at 1:03 AM
This is the licence agreement you accept with the TSR tool

Quote:
All of the SlimDX source code and binaries, including all developer samples, are available under the terms of the MIT License. All of the artwork, audio, and non text media is covered by the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 License. The full text of these licenses follows.
The MIT License
Copyright (c) 2007-2008 SlimDX Group
Permission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person obtaining a copy of this software and associated documentation files (the "Software"), to deal in the Software without restriction, including without limitation the rights to use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, sublicense, and/or sell copies of the Software, and to permit persons to whom the Software is furnished to do so, subject to the following conditions:
The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in all copies or substantial portions of the Software.
THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHORS OR COPYRIGHT HOLDERS BE LIABLE FOR ANY CLAIM, DAMAGES OR OTHER LIABILITY, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, TORT OR OTHERWISE, ARISING FROM, OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE SOFTWARE OR THE USE OR OTHER DEALINGS IN THE SOFTWARE.
The Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/us/.
You are free:
To Share - to copy, distribute, display, and perform the work
To Remix - to make derivative works
Under the following conditions:
Attribution - You must attribute the work in the manner specified by the author or licensor (but not in any way that suggests that they endorse you or your use of the work).
Share Alike - If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under the same, similar or a compatible license.
For any reuse or distribution, you must make clear to others the license terms of this work. The best way to do this is with a link to the above web page.
Any of the above conditions can be waived if you get permission from the copyright holder.
Apart from the remix rights granted under this license, nothing in this license impairs or restricts the author's moral rights.


Does this mean the tool can be reused or just the content from it? To me it looks like if you wanted to you could back engineer it and use it, of course as long as you give credit or something, but it doesn't say that.

I'm not great on legal jargon but what I get from that is thet it's out there to be used as it says the software, not the resulting product
Banned
#55 Old 16th Aug 2009 at 1:32 AM
Well, I am up on legal jargon.

Here's the bottom line: Someone modifies a dress using the program, then uploads it to a free site - or even a pay site. Is EA, TSR, or any sane person for that matter, going to hire a lawyer and spend $100,000 in attorneys fees to tell them not to do it?

I would really be surprised if EA took any action. As the holders of the copyrights for the program, EA has the rights over ALL derivative work. That means EVERYTHING posted on TSR, ModtheSims, Peggyzone and every free site is an infringement on their copyright. Not only that, it infringes on their trademarks as well. (The EULA is simply a device for them to claim more rights than they are entitled to under copyright law.) Whether it is a free site or a pay site is immaterial. Just because content is free does not mean that it is not violating a copyright.

Now perhaps, someone could argue that it is "fair use," a parody or any of the other exceptions in the copyright laws. If they had that same $100,000 to spend for attorneys. (It is hard to do any serious litigation these days for under $100,000.)

So why doesn't EA take action? Because they are not stupid. All of the mods and CC add value to their program. If people enjoy the program, they will purchase it, and all of the expansions. This is why the Sims 2 was the most successful computer game ever published. Why kill the goose that lays the golden egg?

Yes, they have to give lip service to the PG13 stuff, so the Moral Minority does not get thump them with their Bibles, and so Wally World does not yank the program off their shelves. (Of course, given that Wally World sells and promotes Britney Spears latest album, getting little girls to sing "If You Seek Amy," sort of puts the lie to their PG policy.) Even at its worst, the Sims is far less offensive than other games appearing on Wally World's shelves.

So, the bottom line is, we all are infringing on EA's copyrights -- and they love it!
Scholar
#56 Old 16th Aug 2009 at 1:46 AM Last edited by fluttereyes : 16th Aug 2009 at 1:56 AM.
Uhm, I wasn't talking about the EULA. This is the documentation with the TSR tool, the subject of the thread. The text quoted is in reference to the usage of the tool. So if you're up on legal jargon. Can you see anything in there that says you can't back engineer the software? To me it looks like you can and permission is given by that agreement you accept when you install the program.

I've been watching this thread with interest and have refrained from saying anything till now.

My opinion is that it would be in TSR's best interest to make the tool available for others like Delphy to use. The main reason would be, more custom content. If there was a spirit of goodwill on the development and implementation of tools between all developers, it would benefit the entire community. More custom content means more stuff for TSR ultimately, and as a pay site, I don't see how that could hurt. On the contrary, developing goodwill among the community could lead to more members for TSR. It would be a win - win situation. It's good publicity to be seen to be working with the community for the benifit of all. To be seen to be trying to outdo the other developers, using them to get initial work done, then dropping them and not giving back what you got, well that's bad publicity and I doubt it will be long before everyone sees it.

We all have work to do here, fun to have, free stuff to get out (for some pay stuff), I don't care which. It would just create a much better harmony in the community if everyone is more open with each other.

Has it ever occured, that if Delphy, Wes and the others had the UI codes, he might actually be the one to take this tool further forward and that he would share back with you? Surely this would save packets of money, paying people to do work Delphy,Wes, Peter, Inge or any of the others would be doing for free.

It just makes good business sense.
Me? Sarcastic? Never.
staff: administrator
#57 Old 16th Aug 2009 at 2:25 AM
Scholar
#58 Old 16th Aug 2009 at 2:43 AM
Quote: Originally posted by HugeLunatic
fluttereyes it looks like you've posted the license agreement for SlimDX Code, not the license for the actual TSR workshop.


Yep. But this sentence is relevant

The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in all copies or substantial portions of the Software.

Meaning that the above statement applies to the software. There is nothing in that statement, which you sign as accepted when you install the tool.

Quote:
You are free:
To Share - to copy, distribute, display, and perform the work
To Remix - to make derivative works
Under the following conditions:
Attribution - You must attribute the work in the manner specified by the author or licensor (but not in any way that suggests that they endorse you or your use of the work).
Share Alike - If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under the same, similar or a compatible license.
For any reuse or distribution, you must make clear to others the license terms of this work. The best way to do this is with a link to the above web page.


There is no other copyright statement or anything esle but what I copied to here. If the workshop has a different agreement, then it is that agreement we should have to accept when we install, is it not? I would say that the above is in reference to the tools as well. I might be well off the mark, but when you distribute software or anything else you want to protect, you have to state the terms of use in the installation. Remember the problems EA had with SecuRom for not putting it in the part where we click, I accept the terms blah, blah.

That statement is the sum total of the agreement you accept, there is no other licence that coms with the software.

I'm probably wrong, just trying to help
Me? Sarcastic? Never.
staff: administrator
#59 Old 16th Aug 2009 at 3:19 AM
There is a different license that comes with it. Someone more technical minded will have to explain what the SlimDX code is, but it has something to do with using the MS API and dll's.

Here, from July 21st. Not sure which version of the workshop this was, but it probably hasn't changed much.


Not actually evil.
#60 Old 16th Aug 2009 at 3:34 AM
I'm still waiting for Thomas or Steve to say people can link to MTS on TSR, like they promised people would be able to. Bets on having to wait forever?

Please spay or neuter your pets. --- Cat Music Video! --- my meshes
Warrior Gryphon
site owner
#61 Old 16th Aug 2009 at 10:47 AM
fluttereyes: While there are some things the TSR Workshop does that CTU doesn't, there are also things that CTU does that TSRW doesn't - and in addition, does them quicker. Getting the TSRW source code wouldn't really help CTU that much becuase it's written in an entirely different way using entirely different libraries - and, of course, you are assuming I would want to use TSRW code in my programs (Protip: I would rather not).

Besides, this entire discussion is moot - TSR wont release the UI for the framework becuase it's "front end", and any back end file format stuff is stuff we worked out in the first place - so really there isn't much they can offer that we don't already know, apart from minor clarification of points that we might not have investigated as much.

But the fact is that CTU does have a 3d view, and that 3d view can show clothing and patterns and accessories, and can do new meshes and new items for the game - and do it much faster than the TSR Workshop can, so I'd rather work with a team of programmers who aren't just writing a program to make TSR money, and instead concentrating on a free program with free source code for *everything*, so that anybody may learn from it.

The entirety of the CTU, Pattern Creator, Pattern Browser, Render view and other liibrary source code is available, for free, for anybody to view and use, right now - and my tools are still marked as Beta. I don't see any code from TSR. Do you?

Story books are full of fairy tales, of Kings and Queens, and the bluest skies.
Scholar
#62 Old 16th Aug 2009 at 1:36 PM
Delphy. I have the latest CTU, that was found in the middle of the thread. I don't have 3d view on it, just thumbnails. Do I have to do something to get the 3d view to work? I'll bring this over to the CTU thread


Quote: Originally posted by Delphy
fluttereyes: While there are some things the TSR Workshop does that CTU doesn't, there are also things that CTU does that TSRW doesn't - and in addition, does them quicker. Getting the TSRW source code wouldn't really help CTU that much becuase it's written in an entirely different way using entirely different libraries - and, of course, you are assuming I would want to use TSRW code in my programs (Protip: I would rather not).

Besides, this entire discussion is moot - TSR wont release the UI for the framework becuase it's "front end", and any back end file format stuff is stuff we worked out in the first place - so really there isn't much they can offer that we don't already know, apart from minor clarification of points that we might not have investigated as much.

But the fact is that CTU does have a 3d view, and that 3d view can show clothing and patterns and accessories, and can do new meshes and new items for the game - and do it much faster than the TSR Workshop can, so I'd rather work with a team of programmers who aren't just writing a program to make TSR money, and instead concentrating on a free program with free source code for *everything*, so that anybody may learn from it.

The entirety of the CTU, Pattern Creator, Pattern Browser, Render view and other liibrary source code is available, for free, for anybody to view and use, right now - and my tools are still marked as Beta. I don't see any code from TSR. Do you?
Test Subject
#63 Old 18th Aug 2009 at 11:47 PM
I've tried it and succesfully made new meshes and stuff (just for testing and seeing if I can do it) it's easy once you get the hang of things and it's a great tool. Only problem is some things simply don't work and it doesn't open .package or .sims3pack files but someone informed me that you'll be able to open them up on the next major release.. So, we'll see by then. It's a good tool though.
Test Subject
#64 Old 19th Aug 2009 at 1:51 AM
One thing I don't like TSRW is the file size, those files I created with TSRW are huge while CTU's are much smaller.
Me? Sarcastic? Never.
staff: administrator
#65 Old 19th Aug 2009 at 2:16 AM
Warrior Gryphon
site owner
#66 Old 19th Aug 2009 at 8:53 AM
HugeLunatic: Usually, though, it doesn't matter which tool you use to make something - if the tool generates files in the correct way then it should work fine. We allow credits to state the tool, but I really don't see any reason why it should be a requirement - after all, not everybody has the same issue.

Story books are full of fairy tales, of Kings and Queens, and the bluest skies.
Mad Poster
#67 Old 19th Aug 2009 at 9:56 AM
Why is the files so large? One tunic with 4 recolorable parts @ 21MB, and an elder shirt with 3 recolorable parts @ 20MB. That is outrageous.

The answer I get from the creators, it's large because of the recolor parts of the mesh. Not true, I have seen items not made with the TSRW tool that had 4 recolor parts and still be around 1MB. I don't understand that, and to me if I didn't watch what I downloaded, my download folder would be beyond a gig by now.

Resident member of The Receptacle Refugees
Let's help fund mammograms for everyone. If you want to help, Click To Give @ The Breast Cancer Site Your click is free. Thank you.
Warrior Gryphon
site owner
#68 Old 19th Aug 2009 at 5:05 PM
lewisb40: Most likely it's the following:

1 uncompressed 1024x1024 image is approximately 5mb in size
4 of these in a package is 20mb
Without DBPF compression, and including the extra gubbins, you get to a size of 21mb.

So, most likely, the input texture is NOT DXT3 or 5 and is totally uncompressed. Which will work, but really isn't supported - indeed, here on MTS2 we do not allow people to upload items that have uncompressed images in them unless they are patterns.

So, honestly, it's the creators either not realising about DXT compression, or knowing about it and deliberately not using it and therefore pushing the filesize up.

Story books are full of fairy tales, of Kings and Queens, and the bluest skies.
Mad Poster
#69 Old 19th Aug 2009 at 9:23 PM
Thanks for the answer Delphy. Can I post this answer in the forum of that site. Maybe it can help them. No it's not TSR, LOL! One of the nices sites, but foreign, "SimsControl". Hopefully this translates well in Spanish.

Resident member of The Receptacle Refugees
Let's help fund mammograms for everyone. If you want to help, Click To Give @ The Breast Cancer Site Your click is free. Thank you.
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