The poly-count refers to the total number of faces (triangles) in a mesh, it doesn't matter how many vertices there are.

Here is my own rule-of-thumb for making meshes:

Instead of a certain amount, I simply examone the original Maxis mesh (whether body, hair, or object) and get it's poly-count.

Then I limit myself to twice that amount of polys, maximum.

If I can go less, so much the better, if I go over I go back and do whatever it takes to get it down to my limit.

But again, that's just me. Everyone must decide for themselves.

I do think it is important to put this information where a person will see it before downloading.

Nemi: you need this file:

http://forums.modthesims2.com/files/simpe.rcol.zip

Extract it from the zip and then copy it to your C:\Program Files\SimPE directory. It will ask you if you want to overwrite the file by the same name that is already there. Say yes. That's pretty much it. Then the count should start showing up when you look at the GMDC.

I'm in the process of writing a general low polygon modeling tutorial for this site. I think this will help push the idea over to a more visual understanding of how creators can take all this information and apply it to their own modeling methods. It's one thing to say, ok only use 800 verts for this object, but it's a totally different story to make an exceptable model under those guidlines when you just don't know how.

Thank u, o great Motoki

Dr. Pixel: I rather like that method. Then you have a real object to base the count off of and compare yours to. Just going by a number without seeing a real example seems a bit abstract to me.

I've mentioned this to RGiles before, but I've been meaning to go through all the Maxis stuff and count it and post a list but I've been putting it off because, well, lol it's not exactly a fun way to spend one's time and is rather tedious. Perhaps I'd better get going on doing that though because it looks like it's really going to be needed.

well i really don't think all this extra work is needed! that would take forever! If you still want to do this though, might i suggest you instead list one objects count from each category. e.i, beds, chairs, couches, counters, diningroom tables, end tables, desks... etc. that way it would be a quick reference list, rather then a long arduous task of searching through a block of numbers. lol

Here's another comparison I want to post of an object I modified for myself and optimized the poly count down.

Dincer Hepguler's China Vase:

http://moonsims.asi.org/dh-sims-site/sims2new.htm

polygons: 10,304
vertices: 6,009



Now here it is after I ran it through the optimize modifier in 3D Studio Max. Only took my a minute or so to do:

polygons: 2,128
vertices: 2,774



It's actually not as low as I would have liked, but it was as far as I could go without destroying the mesh and it's at a count that I can live with it at least now.

I did also change the UV map so it doesn't stretch as much and I actually like it better with my changes.

Oh and I'm just posting this to show that meshes can easily be optimized with little effort if you know what to do. Believe me when I say I am no expert. I know my way around a 3D editor a little bit, but there are a lot of people out there that are so much more experienced than me that I'm not even in their league. And it only took me a couple of minutes to do that, I didnt even really try that hard. I don't see what's so different between the shape of these two meshes that justifies the original being nearly 5X higher in its poly count.

Okay there appears to be some confusions about vertice counts.

The vertex count in Items 2 *is* the correct vertex count for the object *within* the GMDC. It has to be correct since it's telling the game how many vertices to load in.

The SimPE export plugin merges vertices and so do some 3d modelling programs. A lot of the Maxis objects use "shared" vertices - that is, one vertex is shared by multiple sub-objects. These are *not* counted in the Items 2 count since that count is on a per-sub-item level and not overall.

Also, beosboxboy:

Do you have any idea just how much work goes into making a game engine? I'm guessing from your reply you are a gamer and not a programmer. It takes many man hours to make a game engine and to have *2* seperate rendering paths for high and low polys - and then the seperate shader paths needed for Nvidia and ATI cards, and then seperate things for DirectX7 and 8 cards.... it all adds up.

Thats why games employ sophisticed Level of Detail systems - so the same game engine can be used on a high end card with no loss of quality but also on a low end card too.

Regards,
Delphy

Motoki,

Good comparison. Besides, good texturing work MORE than makes up for a low quality 3d mesh behind it. You don't need 10,000 polys to have a great looking object - and at least with the lower poly counts you know it'll work on more peoples games!

Oh Amen to that!

If you guys want to see some good texturing work that makes super low poly meshes look good, check out the pictures of Rhedd's heads for Morrowind on this site:

http://home.wnm.net/~bgriff/MW_WelfF.html

Especially interesting is the comparison further down on the page between his heads and the ones Bethesda (the game company) shipped the game with. His are actually even a bit lower poly than theirs but look 100X better!

About those morrowind models... i think one of the main reasons Rhedds look better is down to texturing... I can say with a reasonable amount of certainty that the textures on the faces (esp the black eyed ones) are rendered in Poser on the Pookling figure from DAZ by Thorneworks... so when you put a much better rendered pic on a basic mesh it will always look better, the same was true for the ultra low meshes in TS1... I suspect the other textures are also rendered in Poser.

heres a pic of DAZ's pooklings... look familiar! *the closer i look, looks like they've exported the head of a DAZ mesh, I certainly hope that person hasn't taken parts DAZ Milkids meshes and reduced them and then stuck them on a morrowind mesh.. BIG NO NO, DAZ will set their lawyers on them pretty fast if they find out... so if you know that person, u'd better tell them!!)

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/vayne_xianah/pookling.jpg

--------------------
Oh and I downloaded some new meshes today from 4esf, parsimonious & sunair sims, and I was happy to discover that most things were fairly low poly, expect the Dresser from Sunair's sectional bedroom set prt 2, which was just under 8,000 poly's, which is a shame.

-Xi-

Delphy - which type of vertices are we talking about then - actual vertices or textured ones?

(Edited to include: The reason why I'm interested in whether it's actual or textured - is because different mapping techniques can reduce the number of textured vertices for the same object - and if it's textured - it's nice to know that I need to do that).

For the example I gave - there was only one object, so there were no vertices counted twice for sub-objects.

Also - I need to understand how we get 36 vertices in a box, the reason being - if the SimPE/3D programs are merging vertices I need to be able to calculate how many extra vertices I need to expect so that the object doesn't go over the limit.

Kiri

Edited to include: I completely agree with keeping the poly/vertice counts down btw - what I'm concerned with is knowing what things I need to watch out for to do that, and also giving the downloaders accurate information so that the number of abusive emails is minimised.

Those heads predated "pookling" by at least a year, and what you see on the left-hand side of the page is the in-game render.

They are all original meshes and textures. Just plain brilliant work by someone who is a professional in the gaming industry (iirc). They look fantastic in the game and are extrememly low-poly.

ok but, Thorneworks had a very similar character available for version 2 mil kids a few years ago.... they just look like poser rendered textures and they look like poser heads spliced on....

I appologise... I am just very familiar with this work and its looks very very similar to the Mil Kids mesh.

It does resemble some of those in rendered form, but the mil kids heads are way way higher poly than those heads. The amazing thing about them is that it's hard to see the difference until you take the textures off an look at the wireframe. The textures add a huge amount of detail that isn't present at all in the mesh, which is why Motoki pointed them out. The mill kids, otoh, are meant for still renders and have the details actually in the mesh.

yup, i understand... they do look like rendered images and yes i know they can make a quite undetailed mesh look very detailed... It was a how a lot of people got TS1 sims to look to good even though the meshes were extremely low poly.

btw.. I myself a while ago turned a DAZ victoria 2 head into a TS1 sim head, i reduced the mesh in MS3D and got it very low, but with good textures, it looked fantastic, so it is possible.. *it was for strictly strictly personal use btw)

I wasn't accusing anyone.. I was just concerned about that person, incase they didn't realise.

I hope theres no hard feelings.

-Xi-

Nope, not at all. Just trying to explain, since I played the game using those heads... they really look that good. We all drooled a lot, and they became a must-have for everyone.

kewl and i also appologise for taking this thread OT

I agree they are very beautiful, I myself have never played the game.

Rhedd worked on the Unreal Tournament games professionally, and some other stuff too. I worked a lot with his heads in my mods so I'm really familar with them. I believe he and his wife stated the do make high poly renders and base their textures off of those. But they definitely do their own stuff. And Like RGiles said, it's completely the texture detail that makes those heads look so good. If you look at the wireframe in a 3D editor there's almost nothing to them.

And if you dare to look, lol, I even threw my own mug on one of those low poly head meshes. :argh:

http://home.comcast.net/~hofferc/MoPose1.jpg

I need to get off my butt and make a sim me that looks that accurate.

Anyway, enough OT for me. Bad Mo! *slaps self*

Motoki, that's fantastic. I never saw it before. :D

I used the same trick for the metal handles of my cabinets, since I am a crap painter and I could not set the material to be reflective without also having metalic wood. It's obvious when you look at the texture images the couple of parts where I "texture baked" the highlights and shadows.

RG

The Maxis art director said they bake all the shadows and highlights into their textures as well (couches and clothes and such).

I've been meaning to learn how to use those features better but my uv mapping skills have a little ways to go first.

celebkiriedhel

There is no such thing as a textured vertex. Textures are applied to polygons, not vertices.

You might be thinking of T&L vertices instead.

UVmapping is a pain in the butt period. At least for me. Unless it's a really simple shape, I can only get so far with a computer generated one from a program and end up having to pull all the points around myself, which is another reason to keep those vertex counts down, you have less points to drag around on the UV Map if you end up having to edit it by hand.

Just from looking at a whole lot of meshes I have to be honest and say I don't think many people in the TS2 community right now know too much about UVmapping and how to make a good one. I think that's another reason they just end up putting their detail in the mesh.

I can't tell you how many meshes I've come across where someone just slaps a solid color on it, and then when you go to try to recolor it with a pattern it just stretches and warps all over the darned place. :o

I never skin without a UV Map, they are invaluable. I always used to make my own meshes for TS1 so creating and optimizing uv meshes was easier, but also a challange with such a small area.

Understanding shading does take some practicing.. but after a while your eye seems to get the knack, its a lot of use of the burn and highlight, smudge tools etc... creating the illusion of folds & effects on fabric is a challange but one I enjoy. I have been skinning for a good number of years and i'm always learning.

By the way, I mentioned yesterday that Sunair new dresser was a tad high in Poly's and YAY.. today I find that they have reduced it... see, all this is very worthwhile and its working and I am very glad to see the community as a whole taking it in the spirit in which is what meant as helpful and imformative - rather than a bunch of us ganging up on them... lol...

-Xi-
xXx