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Scholar
Original Poster
#76 Old 16th Sep 2009 at 2:40 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Cyberian_Trooper
Experience does help to a point but it won't replace an actual parenting experience because things could be different too when you have children. The kids I looked after back then aren't like the kids of today.


Indeed it won't. You need to have an open mind and heart and follow along with what you have now. You can learn from the past, but don't live in it.

Quote: Originally posted by CuddlesdaTeddlyBear
I can only laugh at the irony behind this. A mother cannot confess to raising her hand to her child on national TV (she's clearly lying) for fear of the consequences, but must live with the embarrassment of her child hitting her on national television and seen in the eyes of the viewers as a bad mother.

It's a shame when society's views on what is deem a barbaric act restricts a parent from properly conditioning a child to be a respectful and contributory member in that same society. Agreed, it depends on the individual and some have a higher threshold for punishment than others, but to allow a child to recklessly do what they want without properly rearing them is neglectful. There was alot less delinquency in the old days for a reason.


Now it looks too dumb. "My son beat me, but even though I beat him, no one cares!"

There was a lot less of everything. American and Asian children worked on farms or helped parents with their businesses. Then drugs, medicine, and what I call "Sexual Healing" suddenly went and eroticized and everything was corrupted. It did begin with the Western world, but now it's happening to Asia and Africa. People just got lazier and lazier. I remember reading on another forum, "It's simply ridiculous. First, we all worked. Then, you could sit back and make your wife do it, but pay her. Now men, women, and children all rely on machines?" It was much easier to control everyone back then... no one made it past high school or had all the technology and freedom they do now.

Quote: Originally posted by Night Revenant
I believe personally for me and my homelife that physical discipline should only be used when a child does something drastically unsafe like running towards the road without looking for cars or going near a electrical socket with a fork but it shouldn't be left with just a spanking or a smack on the hand. I would explain the personal harm it would cause them and take measures to ensure that they learn how to look both ways before crossing the street or covering the electrical sockets with those plastic tabs.


That's what most parents don't understand. If you're going to hit, spank, or whatever, at least explain why you're punishing them. Be clear about it. If they are, it's not good enough. Some kids will just go and break their own records anyway.
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Scholar
Original Poster
#78 Old 16th Sep 2009 at 3:21 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Cyberian_Trooper
There are horror stories about child protection where kids can end up in a foster home where things could be much worse. I think it's more like bad parenting rather then she being so much a bad parent. Parents do need support and help and I really think besides having a kids phone line there should also be one for parents too.

We don't know the whole situation surrounding what has happened in their life and we can only view a certain aspect so naturally it's easy to judge based on what we have partly we have viewed. It could even be like a situation where it looks like something that totally isn't and the media will only take one part of that and run it like a story but they don't give the full truth.


This may sound like a threat to you, but my father actually did used to tell us he'd call the police if we ever talked back to or tried to go against him. He kept on doing it, until one day the cops did show up and told him not to anymore.

Parenting classes do exist, but due to different mindsets and cultural background and upbringing, it's difficult to just change somebody by making them go to Saturday School. As I've said before, it's a lot easier to teach a kid.

Right, but they become bad parents because of the bad parenting skills.

A similar problem exists with criminals and teenage parents. It's very one-sided.


Quote: Originally posted by Cyberian_Trooper
Now when I had a high school counselor he took my side which made it look like my mother totally bad and I was the angelic child. He was in favor of the things I said. That's unhealthy because had to be some situation that was created for both sides being at odds with each other.

I am just using my own personally experience as an example because of course at the time things the way things are viewed can be viewed differently from today. I think it's poor counseling when you take ones person's side. Psychologists and counselors should not be bias unless there is a definite reason.


Right, but that happens in California, too. Social workers and high school counselors always take the kid's side and make the parents look bad. You can go to court for anything and everything here.

Quote: Originally posted by Cyberian_Trooper
Like throwing a baby on a barbecue and cooking them. No type of abuse is good whether it be mild or extreme.

I once read a story back in my teens about a mother who put a baby in a frying pan and the child grew up in an extremely abusive home. I don't remember what the book was called but it sure was horrible to read about.


Ahh. That is like the Vietnamese girl who ran from her village and had her back permanently scarred for life during an accidental bombing in the 1960s. I don't remember her name, but she lives in Canada and is in her forties today. (See my post here; stuff was messy back then.)

This comes to mind.

Was the book A Child Called It? While tragic, much of the story was fabricated, very much like James Frey and A Million Little Pieces.
Alchemist
#79 Old 16th Sep 2009 at 4:21 AM
hum...well...coming from a personal POV, i used to be spanked all the time.

xDD
never effected me. time outs never effected me, either. i was allowed an imagination when i was little [ thank fuck, i love my parents for that ], so even if i just sat in a corner for a while, id be entertained.
why? because im a willful child. what i decide, i do. what i dont, i absolutely will not.
so in any case, i think it has to do with the individual child whether or not any punishment is effective or not, physical or otherwise. i personally would not spank a child, and would do my best not to smack them otherwise [ we all have our moments... doesnt make us bad people ]. like i said, its a matter of finding out what works best for THAT child.

hell, time outs and spankings may not work.
it may be that you need to take away some of their privileges for them to learn the consequences of their actions. *cough*
or restrict other liberties, like being able to go out with friends or to special events. im pretty sure thats all typical of parenting techniques, though.

"The more you know, the sadder you get."~ Stephen Colbert
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." ~ Jon Stewart
Versigtig, ek's nog steeds fokken giftig
Scholar
Original Poster
#81 Old 16th Sep 2009 at 6:00 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Cyberian_Trooper
I do recall a woman who actually threatened her child in public place where I was sitting down resting in the mall. I think the child was acting out and it was her way to keep them quiet. I was really in shocked to hear a mother talk that way to her child especially in a public place.


It is funny to me now that our parents would just fly into rages. No one wants to hear the truth about themselves.

Quote: Originally posted by Cyberian_Trooper
I didn't know there was parenting classes. I wonder they have them here in Canada too if they have them in the United States. That would be a good thing but then I have to wonder if really people out there would really care to go to them? Seeing as there are people who can be in denial that about the kinds of things they are doing to their children.


They don't have them in Canada? Really? Maybe people are more open up there, but it isn't working here.

Quote: Originally posted by Cyberian_Trooper
I know my parents loved me in spite of what they have done in the past because they actually have been there for me in some cases maybe not as emotionally as I would have liked but they have helped me out along the way with some things. Growing up I often wished my parents were like other people's parents.


This is common amongst immigrant families; we all wish we could be like the "perfect whiteys, but too bad we're Asian/Hispanic/Black". I remember my classmates (I grew up in a diverse Vietnamese and Chinese immigrant community, one that rivals the one in San Francisco and our actual business district downtown) always said this. When I told my sister, she said, "Umm, I'm sorry, but this would not work out. Very few whites are up to this ideal you're all projecting. Say if we would turn Caucasian right now, we would still be white trash." Who would wish for themselves to be poor? I thought it was obvious everyone wanted to be a RICH WHITE PERFECT KID! YAY! But of course, we're not changing races. We can't.

Quote:
I used to sit in front the boob tube and watch programs with families in them and often wished I could jump inside the television box and be apart of their family cause it always looked so supportive and were there for each other. Eight is enough was one of the family type shows I liked, although I didn't watch all of it all the time just some of the time.


It's all staged. Families of that size suffering those situations would be dead in reality. I remember Reba McEntire, "I'm a single mom of four of works too hard, loves her kids, and never stops! Who I am is who I want to be!" My dad's friend has a Vietnamese wife who does have three girls and a boy, and she's on welfare and half-dead everyday. Her husband leaves her every morning to drink with what I call our Old Saigon Guys. She can't drive and she had brain cancer (operations solved that, but now she can never leave the house or work anymore).

Quote:
I always thought it would be cool to have a older brother like David who was protective looking out for me in the way he was with his sisters in that show. They all had their problems off screen though and it's sad how some actors lives can be not quite living up to their reality in a family show. I don't even remember when it went off the air that show?


You wouldn't want David, because he's not who you think he is.
Scholar
Original Poster
#83 Old 16th Sep 2009 at 6:30 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Cyberian_Trooper
I wasn't talking about race regarding the perfect family. I was more less thinking that as a child having that type of family.


In Western countries, the "perfect" families media sends out to us are almost always white — if they have a minority thrown in there, said character(s) are almost always portrayed in a negative or comical light. I can't speak for the other minorities, but for many years, Asians were incredibly tolerant of their governments and too practical. They placed more emphasis on knowledge and hard work and people (of both genders) were not expected to be creative or have emotions. This is definitely a sharp contrast to the Western "immense freedom for everyone". Westerners came along, "found" us, and then thought we all needed severe help. True story.

Quote: Originally posted by Cyberian_Trooper
I wish people wouldn't try to be any thing but their race whether they are pure of race or mixed. I think it's interesting to see people inter marry too.

I have met quite a number of people who are intermixed and it's interesting to see how people mix in race. I think that is quite interesting.


A number of White American (some black, too) men brought home Vietnamese ladies after the war. (Too bad the US government ****heads treats them like something the cat drug in, but that's another matter entirely.) They're all over — some live in Canada and France, too. Many Vietnamese are mixed with Chinese and French.

Quote: Originally posted by Cyberian_Trooper
Why did you say that about David? You left hanging there on that comment so I don't know what you mean by that?

I was only talking about a TV show brother and I just thought it would have been nice to have had a older brother.


In reality, siblings can be cranky, annoying, disruptive, and distracting. He looks like Perfect Big Bro or whatever. He's not.

David is a very common name; I thought you meant the protagonist of A Child Called It. He's a fake.
Scholar
#84 Old 16th Sep 2009 at 6:49 AM
Quote: Originally posted by 1ove


This is common amongst immigrant families; we all wish we could be like the "perfect whiteys, but too bad we're Asian/Hispanic/Black".



This is off-topic, but I completely relate to this. My parents were immigrants from China, and when I was growing up I remember always wishing I could be white.


And then I grew up, and I realized that I had been deceived.

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Banned
#85 Old 16th Sep 2009 at 7:37 AM
I haven't read all of the thread.

I personally believe that each child is different and should have their own disciplinary actions. Some children will only need a simple "don't do that" or a "no", others a small swat on their behind/hands/etc(think something like you clapping your hands together) and then there's others that no matter what you do they will be unruly until they get their way. I myself fell in between the last 2 examples, I got paddled, and at the time I never thought I deserved but in retrospect I most definitely deserved it and probably more. Spanking your child is likely to NOT screw up their psyche or really anything very detrimental, especially if you explain to them why they had been spanked. I consider something like training a puppy not to chew on things, children have to be trained as well, sadly more and more parents aren't training their children but letting their children train themselves which can be good or bad depending on the child.
Alchemist
#86 Old 16th Sep 2009 at 7:51 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Safyre420
I haven't read all of the thread.

I personally believe that each child is different and should have their own disciplinary actions. Some children will only need a simple "don't do that" or a "no", others a small swat on their behind/hands/etc(think something like you clapping your hands together) and then there's others that no matter what you do they will be unruly until they get their way. I myself fell in between the last 2 examples, I got paddled, and at the time I never thought I deserved but in retrospect I most definitely deserved it and probably more. Spanking your child is likely to NOT screw up their psyche or really anything very detrimental, especially if you explain to them why they had been spanked. I consider something like training a puppy not to chew on things, children have to be trained as well, sadly more and more parents aren't training their children but letting their children train themselves which can be good or bad depending on the child.


QFT.

...
and i dont understand what people are talking about when they say " the perfect whitey "s. is that a joke? WTF is a " perfect whitey "? im white, and i have no idea what the hell that means. maybe because my family was poor and couldnt afford [ in terms of time and patience ] to be wonderful, non-violent angels all the time. o_O

"The more you know, the sadder you get."~ Stephen Colbert
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." ~ Jon Stewart
Versigtig, ek's nog steeds fokken giftig
Scholar
Original Poster
#87 Old 16th Sep 2009 at 8:32 AM
Quote: Originally posted by SuicidiaParasidia
QFT.

...
and i dont understand what people are talking about when they say " the perfect whitey "s. is that a joke? WTF is a " perfect whitey "? im white, and i have no idea what the hell that means. maybe because my family was poor and couldnt afford [ in terms of time and patience ] to be wonderful, non-violent angels all the time. o_O


Well, umm, you guys should stop being lazy and take a look. I'm not going to explain myself over and over when everything I want to say has already been said (by me and others). Over and over. It's as though there's no more point of this thread, because the same stuff keeps being said by new and different people. It's basically a giant chute for everyone to drop their thoughts and concerns, agreed or disagreed. Everyone past WannabeSith just gave up reading what we already wrote. I'm not going to write more and more when you new posters keep making old points that I have already addressed. What's the use of this thread now? That's the problem with an issue like this — it's personal and reflects IRL, not what a politician ate in jail or what the geometry teacher is listening to — everyone's opinions seem to overlap. Everyone feels so passionate and right when everything has already been done and even addressed. Over and over! That's it. Let it be.

That's why I added that we, the minorities, eventually learned that "perfect whiteys" were nearly nonexistent! On TV, they'd show them all rich, blond kids, mom serving waffles and them shuffling through beautiful, lush high schools. They all moved out at eighteen. Did whatever they wanted and never, ever seemed to run out of money, freedom, or makeup (and money for clothes and stuff, but I don't doubt Caucasians haven't learned anything from being in this country so many years). Also, they spoke English only after all these generations.
Scholar
Original Poster
#89 Old 16th Sep 2009 at 8:52 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Cyberian_Trooper
I think we should start up another thread on this very topic because it seems that we aren't talking about spanking any more and I don't want the want mods to come after us with their spankings.


Yeah, I was starting to realize this right when you came to me with the "David is the perfect big brother" thing. It's really all been said and done, as I've been saying in my past six or so posts.
Lab Assistant
#90 Old 16th Sep 2009 at 10:33 AM
I used to wish I born into a white family as well when I was younger. The parents listened to their children, they talked, gave them an allowance and sat around the table for dinner. My mother was old-fashioned and, because of her childhood, she didn't know how to open herself to others the way the white families on TV did. When I was a teen I became very rebellious and my mother and I weren't speaking for a whole year and I talked to my Dad (he doesn't live with us, *typical black family thing, fathers never stay around*) and I told him I wish my mother was more understanding, that she'd talk to me and hug me and told me she loved me. He said I watched too much TV and that families on television don't show the dysfunctions that really take place. This was during the time I watched alot of Seventh Heaven.

I don't think all black families on TV are portrayed in a bad light and not all white families are portrayed in a good light, but these are the exceptions to the rules. Rich, black families on TV (very rare) are often seen as 'happy and tranquil' as the white ones. Compare the family in 'Everybody Hates Chris' to the family in 'Roseanne'. It's the kind of ghetto or trailer park families that are always dysfunctional. The Cosby's from 'The Cosby Show' and the Banks' from 'The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air' are both great examples of this. Those were fairly old shows though and I don't watch much television now so I can't think of any black family shows in current syndication.

If Hollywood is guilty of this stereotype, I haven't seen it lately or can't think of any movies that center around black and white families to make a relevant comparison. I watch movies much less than I watch television. Needless to say though, there is a large inbalance of ethnic heroes as opposed to white heroes in Blockbuster movies. I'm not asking for a black Spiderman or an Asian Batman, but, taking from Lucy Liu's argument: In Kill Bill, she was a bad guy and in Charlie's Angels she wasn't the lead. I think, if you're going to toss a minority into the mix just so you won't seem discriminatory is just as prejudiced.
Alchemist
#91 Old 16th Sep 2009 at 10:41 AM
Quote: Originally posted by 1ove
Well, umm, you guys should stop being lazy and take a look.
*snip*

On TV, they'd show them all rich, blond kids, mom serving waffles and them shuffling through beautiful, lush high schools. They all moved out at eighteen. Did whatever they wanted and never, ever seemed to run out of money, freedom, or makeup (and money for clothes and stuff, but I don't doubt Caucasians haven't learned anything from being in this country so many years). Also, they spoke English only after all these generations.


correction: apathetic, not lazy. i dont want to read the entire thread in hopes of finding an explanation that can be given in a spot where i know to look in the first place. (;

hmm... ah, now i think i know what youre talking about.
even so, white people knew that was fake. xD i guess its the sort of thing only people who werent really experiencing it could properly debunk.

delving into a bit of personal information here, while we were all white, my family was far from perfect, and far from never running dry of makeup, money, or freedom. my father was in prison when i was born, i think till i was 2-3 years old, so i never really bonded with him. my mom was always stressed by us kids, and when we were old enough to ignore, she did so happily. and us three, we'd beat each other up all the time, though i was lucky in the respect that my father had this view that women were fragile, silly little creatures, and often protected me from the brunt of my brothers' wrath.
we did eat at the table together, but we were not heart-and-soul like other people expect white people to be. my father, especially, never talked about feelings or the importance of them. im 80% certain that the only reason i didnt turn into a hellion is because my parents allowed me the ownership of animals early on, and taught me how to properly handle them.
[ though in many respects, that was because they liked the animals more than us, lol. ]
later on things got better with my siblings and mother, but never with my dad. o_O the stereotype makes me wish we couldve been like that, at least for a little while. it wouldve saved us many a ' OSHI WE'RE IN MONEY TROUBLE ' fight.

"The more you know, the sadder you get."~ Stephen Colbert
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." ~ Jon Stewart
Versigtig, ek's nog steeds fokken giftig
Lab Assistant
#92 Old 24th Dec 2010 at 9:00 PM
My experience and observations, from my own childhood, from reading parenting books and magazines, from parenting 3 kids, from observing and listening to other parents and kids may shed some light on all this. This is a little of what I learned.
Kids will push it to the last punishment, whatever that is. They will often repeat the process. If the last punishment is a spank on the bottom, they will act up until they get it. If being sent to their room is the worst, they keep going until then. Same with any other punishment: time out, yelling, etc. The key is regardless of how many different types of punishments you use, they will push it to the very last one. If the last one is beat them until they pass out, that's how far it will go.
They do this more at particular ages. Usually in the toddler/preschool and preteen/teen years this is the worst.
Why? Kids are doing more than testing boundries and seeing if you really mean it. They are establishing independence. Even a "good" kid will do this during certain stages. If the very worst punishment they ever get is a stern look or stern talking too, they'll stop after that.
However...if there is even an inkling the punishment could get worse, or if they think that you will not punish them, they will escalate things.
And no, not always. Don't give up on those smaller punishments and warnings. Those are important. They give a kid a chance to stop in their tracks, think about what they're doing, make better decisions.
Where to draw the line? Draw it as low as you can get away with. All kids are different. Some nothing seems to work. The only time to do/say nothing is when they don't know you know about it.
Suggestions/Goals:
Toddlers try distraction, these kids want what they want and don't understand cause and effect very well; also try diaper changes at this time-not as punishment, but by the time you're done, maybe they'll lose interest inwhatever was naughty/dangerous; remove anything that they won't leave alone that is breakable or dangerous until they are older if you can; remove child from situation
Preschooler Try to reason, know it won't work. Keep trying thoug, eventually they will get it, even repeat it back to you...but it may take a long time. Try asking them why they aren't supposed to do what they're doing. They may stop doing it and think. ALWAYS give them a way to stop and save face....or they just won't stop. Stop violent behavior (at any age) immediately. Sometimes the fastest way to do this is grab a child's wrist. When they outgrow naptime, try a quiet time if the child is very difficult. (This is more for you than them!)
Pre-teen/teen Too old to spank. (If you ever do spank.) This is a time for much creativity and support from other parents. Try to listen as much as you can. Don't take it personally when everything you do is stupid and embarassing to them. Watch Mean Girls. There is a book based on this movie that all parents of daughters should read.
Test Subject
#93 Old 1st Jan 2011 at 8:57 PM
Wow. Long thread. 'Kay, time for my opinion.

Whether you should spank your kid or not depends on the kid. I was spanked when I was a little kid. Not very often, but my brother got it quite a bit. It was the only thing that would get it through his head that he wasn't allowed to do something. But every time my parents spanked us, we would be given warnings first. Every single time. And if we still did what we weren't supposed to do, our butt got slapped a couple times. But along with the warnings, my parents always explained after exactly why they did that. And that usually got the message across.

For my little cousin, time outs don't work. He doesn't seem to register that they're a punishment. His mom has tried talking to him, putting his nose in a corner, probably anything non-violent you could think of. This kid's almost six, so he knows that what he's doing is wrong. He was at our house one day, and my dad heard his mom trying to make him stop throwing his toy cars around. She even took the cars away, but he just got them from where she was keeping them and started throwing them again. So my dad knelt down and looked him right in the eye. He simply said "Are you going to stop throwing your cars or do you want a spanking?" My cousin then proceeded to throw the cars again. My dad just took him into his bedroom and gave him a small spanking. He doesn't throw his cars anymore. =)

So yeah. It all depends on what the kid is like and what you've tried before. If you've tried time outs and all that, sometimes spankings are the only thing that can get a point across. But I will agree that there's an age threshold. The last time my parents spanked me was when I was about 10. After that it's just weird, and honestly kinda inappropriate.
Alchemist
#94 Old 1st Jan 2011 at 9:01 PM
My mother never spanked (gawd, why does it sound so weird) nor hit me. And, believe me, sometimes I deserved it.

Although I DO NOT agree with hitting the child, a little hair / ear pulling is ok. :D

Evil doesn't worry about not being good. - The Warden, Dragon Age Origins
Test Subject
#95 Old 5th Jan 2011 at 3:37 AM
Well, I can honestly say I was not a bright little thing when I was growing up (I'm 13 but I consider myself already out of the child stage, so I am grown up, no comments on this part, thank you ), I was curious, but my curiosity was harmless. SO I rarely ever got beaten, I have only had about 8 beatings, and I am not trying to get anymore, because I tend to hold grudges very easily.

Though when I have a child, I will not hit them at all. Just yell at them very loudly, never laying a hand on them. Verbal discipline works well too, as it did with me. But now my parents don't ground me or anything, I just have many responsibilities, so my parents try to lay off and not cause me anymore stress than I already have. And yes, I am somewhat anti-spanking that word doesn't sound right, it should be used in a sentence with dominatrix).
Forum Resident
#96 Old 6th Jan 2011 at 1:09 PM
I have 7 kids and have never smacked any of them ever. Sometimes I have felt like doing it but that would only teach my kids that it is OK to hit people if you are angry, which I think is wrong. I do shout at them a bit, usually In German. My Husband uses the talking to method, which seems to work, with our kids anyhow. My own Father used this method and it must have worked because we kids dreaded one of his talks.
Lab Assistant
#97 Old 8th Jan 2011 at 12:32 AM
i think its only acceptable in certian circumstances
Forum Resident
#98 Old 8th Jan 2011 at 5:10 PM
I was a terrible child. Really badly behaved. (Which is why I have no siblings!)
I remember my mom putting me in 'time out' and I never listened; I just had huge temper tantrums. So she used to smack me on my bottom (spank is so very American lol) and it used to shock me enough into calming down slightly.
I think if used sparingly, it is a good discipline tool, especially if you have a terror child like me!
Lab Assistant
#99 Old 8th Jan 2011 at 8:55 PM
I didn't get spanked, I got whooped (whupped? whoopings?) with a belt. I was a "good child", except I would lie to get out of trouble and then get in more trouble if I was found out. My brother got whupped a LOT more than I did but he had a smart mouth and was very disobedient. We were never whooped without warnings, but I could definitely see when my parents let their anger control them. It's kinda like "would you rather be feared or loved?" I feared my father, who was the main disciplinarian, and loved my mother. The kids around us in our family/church/school had it worse though- they got hit with brushes, tree branches, extension cords, or had their lips busted.
I will more than likely spank my children, but only as a last resort and only up to a certain age. Once you reach 13, there are a plethora of more favorable punishments than me wearing myself out trying to spank a teenager.

Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting; but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.- Proverbs 31:30
Lab Assistant
#100 Old 9th Jan 2011 at 5:49 AM Last edited by funcioná!!! : 9th Jan 2011 at 5:11 PM.
You chose the wrong day to disagree
I deleted my opinion. Okay, disagree all you want. I don't know how I dare to express my opinion. In case somebody misunderstood me, I am against hitting children. And if some people didn't misunderstand me and think that hitting kids is alright, well, what can I say to you? EVOLVE or put your kids up for adoption, if you hate them so much, this is not 1810 (directed to the ones who disagreed).
 
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