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Lab Assistant
#76 Old 7th Apr 2008 at 8:26 AM
I think spanking should be incorporated for out and out defiant rebellion. For more minor infractions having priviledges taken away is good. I agree with another poster that spanking should never be done in anger. If you are angry you should send them to their room till everyone has a chance to calm down. I was at a restaurant the other night there where two sets of families with children there. One family with children their kids were absolutely running everywhere and acting like hooligans and the other families kids were sitting calmly at a table like little adults. The parents with the hooligans kept threatning the kids with stupid stuff but never did anything to stop the behavior. I went over and thanked the parents who's kids were acting like civilized humans. The mother was so honoured and offered the answer to me. We spank and consistently discipline our children she said. I think the key is consistent discipline and spanking when necessary. Rebellion should not be tolerated. I knew a girl when I was young that hit her mother. What are you gonna do in a situation like that? You've got to spank. Not beat but spank. Just like dog training you have to be consistent. I have three shelties. I can take them anywhere and no one minds but it's because they behave. My dogs act better then most kids. I have had to consistently work with them, spend time with them,love them,reward them when they do well,spank them when they are defiant, and give them positive reinforcement. Oh and this has to start when they're young puppies. Same with kids. I have a friend that swats her babies hand when she is out of control. Since she has done that a couple times now all she has to do is snap her fingers and say ahhh ahhh ahhh. I saw it work and I was amazed. Her baby started throwing a fit when she went to put the babies coat on. She snapped her fingers and said ahhhh ahhh ahhh. The baby immediately stopped. She told me she has swatted her hand a couple times for throwing fits. Iam not talking about busting,beating,or spanking a baby. Iam talking about a swat followed by a corrective tone. If you'll start when there very young and be consistent as they mature and age you'll have less reasons to spank. It will be less necessary.
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#77 Old 7th Apr 2008 at 10:05 AM
I don't think you should spank or hit children as a punishment (or at all), but that a swat on the hands is a good way to teach very young children about dangerous situations.

NOTE: it shouldn't hurt the child, but startle it in a way that they associate the situation with unpleasantness. Try explaining to a two year old that they cannot put their hands on the stove because it hurts? I do the same thing to my animals when they misbehave. When I pet my cat and she bites me, she gets a swat to the nose. That's the way I tell her: "NO! You can not bite me."

But even that should be completely unnescesary with children age 5 and up.

Raising a child and teaching it what is right and wrong is a complex thing, but so important. It's not only punishing them for what they do wrong, but also praising them for what they do right, and helping them when they are in pain. My little cousin of 3, for example. He's 3 and I am 18, but he really looks up to me. I'm his big 'cous :p. Once he fell while running, which resulted in crying of course. All it took was one peek-a-boo to make him smile (I actually taught him to play peek-a-boo, he still loves it). I warned him to be a little more careful, because I saw him playing before and he was a little uncareful. He went back to playing but he was cautious right away.
#78 Old 8th Apr 2008 at 12:43 AM
I don't believe in any kind of violence or abuse, and I think spanking is just that. I too was spanked as a kid, and where did it take me? I grew up with a never ending grudge towards my caretakers. Speaking like a four-year-old: "it was not fair!!!"
I tried give my cat a swat on the nose once. She bit me back. That was fair in my opinion, I had it coming.
But honestly, there is really so much more you can do with children out of control. Distract them. Talk to them. Set an example. I was dealing with a 5-year old boy who was attention-seeking, he practically drove me nuts with provocations. Apparently he expected me to go mad, loose control and hit him. I didn't. I told him he had to hit me first. When he did, I hit him back,(not hard) and said "Now were even". This was more on his terms,(he had me tested) and he realized I was the stronger adult and had the last word. He never disobeyed me again, cause I turned it into a game he could understand. Next time he was hyper I told him I wasn't gonna hit him this time, no matter what he did. (His parents obviously did just that). It made him curious, like he tried harder to find other things to do, when he realized there was more civil ways to seek and get attention.
Inventor
#79 Old 8th Apr 2008 at 12:48 AM
I don't think it should be used for every little thing, but I don't see anything wrong with spanking as a form of punishment. There are, unfortunately, some things that time out or taking away privileges won't fix. I don't see how giving a child a few harmless swats on the butt is child abuse. The most it will leave is a temporary red mark and something to think about the next time they want to repeat that behavior.
#80 Old 8th Apr 2008 at 12:53 AM
I'm not going to debate this Penny, cause it makes me upset. Red marks on a child's butt is the one thing that makes me call the authority's. ( It is after all illegal to hurt kids in my country.) As a friend of me often says, There should be a drivers-license for parents. (Sorry if I make any parents feel bad out there, its just my honest opinion)
#81 Old 8th Apr 2008 at 1:26 AM
Yeah, I suppose you cant always tell if a kid has marks under their clothes. In Sweden any form of physical punishment was forbidden by law in 1979. Not all parents care to act accordingly, but the law at least states what it is - a form of child-abuse and a crime.
Inventor
#82 Old 8th Apr 2008 at 2:38 AM
It kind of depends on what Penny means by a 'temporary red mark', as I don't think that statement alone can be used to define appropriate/inappropriate force. I've just slapped my own hand - hard enough to make a loud noise, not hard enough to hurt - and I have a lovely red patch coming up. It'll probably fade in a few minutes...

Anything that causes welts, bruises or lasting pain then yep, I consider that child abuse. To be honest though, I think that a lot of people do not care. I was beaten black and blue by my brother - cuts, bruises, broken bones, you name it. I tried to report him (to parents, teachers, the police) and achieved nothing. Perhaps it would have been a different story if it had been my mother or father beating me...

Please call me Laura
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#83 Old 8th Apr 2008 at 9:30 PM
Yes, I'm so sorry Penny. I didn't mean to point you out as a child-abuser, God No! I hope no one took it that way...
Inventor
#84 Old 8th Apr 2008 at 10:14 PM
Everyone seems to be misunderstanding me. I'm not talking about leaving bruises or even a red mark that lasts for more then a few minutes, and I'm definitely not talking about doing it often. I was spanked maybe five times as a child, and each time it didn't hurt more then a sting for a minutes. Seeing as most of those times it was through clothing, it didn't even leave a mark of any kind, either. But it shocked me into behaving. Ever try to reason with a screaming three year old? You can't. No amount of coaxing, pleading, promising, or sharp words makes them stop, and you can't logically scream back. Any of the few times I was spanked I deserved it, because I was probably screaming, kicking, hitting, biting and throwing things. If anyone disagrees that's fine with me, everyone is entitled to their own opinion after all, but someday when I have kids, I have no intention of trying to reason with a child that is acting that way, and I refuse to believe that a few quick swatts on the bottom will damage them for life.
#85 Old 8th Apr 2008 at 10:50 PM
I agree ; hitting your kid is never good for them. I became a common flincher because I became too concious of what I was doing all the time, hoping I wasn't going to get in trouble. This fear of any type of physical pain makes me not play sports, because I might get hit or fall or something.
Lab Assistant
#86 Old 8th Apr 2008 at 11:29 PM
Sounds like Connectzeedots and Faithlove got spanked TOO often. And of course I can understand how that would make you be against the practice. But again, it's about irresponsible parenting (spanking every time so they don't have to deal with it in a more time-consuming but effective manner) more than it is about the actual spanking.
#87 Old 9th Apr 2008 at 1:58 AM
Quote: Originally posted by endersgirl07
Sounds like Connectzeedots and Faithlove got spanked TOO often. And of course I can understand how that would make you be against the practice. But again, it's about irresponsible parenting (spanking every time so they don't have to deal with it in a more time-consuming but effective manner) more than it is about the actual spanking.



Well, I wasn't spanked that often, but the threat [not literal] of spanking freaked me out as a child, so I was generally well-behaved. So...maybe empty threats ARE preferable to the chance of your child being afraid of physical hurt.
Lab Assistant
#88 Old 9th Apr 2008 at 2:15 AM
Well, I don't think empty threats are ever preferable to anything. If you threaten or warn to do something as a parent to a child, you have to follow through with it, or else the child will start to think that you don't actually mean anything, and they'll ignore your threats and you'll no longer command authority, even when you do actually punish them (and then they'll just get angrier about it than they would if they had expected you to follow through).
And just because some kids don't need to be spanked doesn't mean that there aren't others for whom it's a very effective punishment, in that it gets the message across and doesn't traumatize the child. HP made a very good example of this in her first post here.
#89 Old 9th Apr 2008 at 2:22 AM
Quote: Originally posted by endersgirl07
Sounds like Connectzeedots and Faithlove got spanked TOO often. And of course I can understand how that would make you be against the practice. But again, it's about irresponsible parenting (spanking every time so they don't have to deal with it in a more time-consuming but effective manner) more than it is about the actual spanking.


i got smacked often (by my mum, not my dad) - i wasn't abused or anything, i was just a kid that was into everything. it hasn't had a noticible effect on me, allthough i probably wouldn't be slap happy with my own kids.. even though i do believe in spanking when needed.

my dad and his brothers used to get beat up constantly by my grandad when they where kids/teens/even early adulthood. (my grandad was a very violent man, towards my nan and other people too. basically he was just a 'hard man') and my dad and uncles have turned out to be such nice people. raised in a rough area but didn't step one foot out of line in fear of reprisals.. so in hindsight, its made them better people - but at an awful cost.
i'm not saying thats the only way to make your kids into good people. (and i'm not condoning it either) - i guess its the lazy way to do it.

also my dad hardly raised his hand to me. last time he did i was 16 and i got it bad, then grounded for a year (i actually stuck to it.. well HAD too). but i deserved it, and i'm glad he did it. because if he wouldn't of put a stop to what i was doing, i'd be a very different person today.
#90 Old 9th Apr 2008 at 5:52 AM
With spanking, it becomes difficult to draw the line between acceptable punishment and abuse.

So, it is better not to hit children at all. Not to mention that physical injury is not a very dependable means of discipline. It is far better to reason with a child, to punish them in ways that does not involve the ominous threat of bodily harm, be it just a spanking, or more severe violence.

Because thats what it is, violence.

I got spankings a lot when I was little, my mother was a very conservative christian, following the "spare the rod, spoil the child" addage. Of course, I suppose I also was getting into everything, from trying to dye my cats fur, to disassembling electronics.

She would usually whip me with a wooden cooking spoon or a wooden switch. It left marks and bruises, from what i remember.

But she stopped this around the same time she lost her religion, started drinking and partaking in other, more mellow narcotics.

Really, I'm glad she quit hitting me. I don't hold it against her now, but she would have been much harder to live with if she had kept her violent militant christian streak.

She denies ever spanking me though, she is apparently quite ashamed of it. My father on the other hand, has never hit me. Then, he was never the disciplinarian in our house. He was a stay at home dad, so it was always "just wait until you mother gets home from work!"
Banned
#91 Old 9th Apr 2008 at 6:53 AM
Quote: Originally posted by spiderviveka
It is far better to reason with a child, to punish them in ways that does not involve the ominous threat of bodily harm, be it just a spanking, or more severe violence.


Most young children you can't reason with for various reasons. I've seen way too many parents at the store or in a restaurant that try to reason with their young child while the child is screaming, crying and just outright being a brat, it really does NOT work. Not every child will ever need a spanking, but some will.
#92 Old 9th Apr 2008 at 8:39 PM
I've seen kids like that too. And as a result, I have also seen some of these kids be hit by their parents in the middle of the store, which I feel is completly inappropriate. I just can't get behind a grown person hitting a small child for any reason, it doesn't seem right to me.

If your child is so small that you can't really communicate with them, then you should do the polite thing, try to calm them down while making whatever your task in public is as brief as possible. Having a cramped social life and being inconvenienced just comes with the territory of parenthood.
Lab Assistant
#93 Old 10th Apr 2008 at 4:48 AM
Every situation and every child is different. If you have a child who brakes a glass and spills milk that's one thing. If he throws the glass down and spills the milk after you told him not to and then looks at you defiantley like what are you gonna do about that. Then I think it's time for a spanking. Rebellion and out right defiance is cause for a spanking. My pastor says spank em till their mad and spank em till their glad. Another words spank em till their attitude is right. The reason we have so many problems with teens and society as a whole is because parents aren't doing their jobs. There are no consequences for the childrens bad behaviour. A good healthy fear of reprocution never hurt anyone. If there were no laws everyone would speed, but we know there are reprocutions if we are caught. So we dont do it hopefully. Some may still do it and those people may need stiffer consequences to stop the lawbreaking. It is the same for kids. Some kids are naturally more submissive others are very strong willed. Most occasionally in their life are gonna require a spanking to correct rebellion. Some more than others.
Lab Assistant
#94 Old 10th Apr 2008 at 5:27 AM
Let's just put it this way his family and himself are some of the most respected folks in my community. They are loved by all. They are very loving people. He has five girls and all of them are more mature than most adults I know, even his youngest that is 10 yrs. old. Say what you want,but one of his girls is a missionary in Wales. Another daughter travels to other countries ministering to youth. Her and her husband are missionaries as well. He has another daughter who is a liason for the big brothers and big sisters clubs of America. His youngest sings well enough at 10 to be on the adult American Idol and win the whole thing. He has raised and is raising up a generation of wonderfully polite women who are destined for greatness. The proof,my dear,is in the pudding. You are not gonna see them on Oprah crying over what their parents did to them. They are well adjusted,mature,responsible adults and young women who absolutely adore their parents. Three are on their own now and two are still at home. I believe the key is balance and consistency. Even though you spank when necessary you balance it with love,attention, and training. You are also consistent. My pastor is obviously doing something right.
#95 Old 10th Apr 2008 at 5:32 AM
I don't believe in spanking. Hitting a child is never acceptable to me. I wasn't spanked as a child, the only thing close was a firm grip and sharp turn around to face my parent and be talked to very firmly when I was doing something that could hurt me (touching a stove). IMO grounding and taking away electronics works for older children/teens and for younger children taking away toys, time out, ect.
#96 Old 10th Apr 2008 at 2:41 PM
What if your child doesn't care about electronics or toys? I was one of those kids that'd amuse themselves in a padded room, and I think my parents realized that. I could entertain myself for hours with a plastic cup! Sending me to my room wouldn't have done anything. Sometimes a spanking is needed.
Lab Assistant
#97 Old 10th Apr 2008 at 4:20 PM
Yep, exactly. As stated many times before in this thread by various people, it DEPENDS ON THE CHILD IN QUESTION. There is no universal acceptable form of punishment because to some a punishment may be excessive and to others a punishment may not be a punishment at all.
Scholar
#98 Old 11th Apr 2008 at 5:22 AM
Quote: Originally posted by *katie*
I don't agree with smacking children. I don't have children, but if I did, I don't think I'd be comfortable doing it.

I'm a trainee primary school teacher, I regularly have to handle an entire class of 25-30 sometimes 30+ children, all without using smacking/spanking. I just feel if I can manage that successfully, parents can manage to discipline their children in other ways.
There are plenty of other ways of controlling bad behaviour, and I have learnt a lot of these and have been trained to feel comfortable using them and obviously never to feel the desire to want to smack as a punishment.
However, I realise not all parents are teachers, so they won't feel as confident in managing troublesome behaviour as I do.
Also, I understand that it can be harder to reason with children below school age (especially toddlers).

Therefore, I do not find it disgusting that some people do smack their children. But I do think if if it is done, it should be a last resort.


I agree with this and relate to it, given my experience as a teacher as well. It has been stated by others in this thread--consistency and immediate action are important for teaching kids acceptable behavior. Also, your partner has to support and mimic your disciplinary actions.


I think that children learn quite a bit by example, and I would never want them to emulate my violence. An alternate method I've found useful during that age (when I've babysat other kids) is to hold them in place via bearhug--just show them that I am in control. Then I talk them through what they did wrong and have them admit their guilt out loud in a semi-full sentence. (It's not always easy to get a full sentence out of a 2 year old!)


In regards to what HP has said about the difficult "terrible twos" stage, I think that spanking does have its place during that age range for the reasons she expressed. Personally, when I have kids, I will avoid spanking them as much as I can. However, I'm not so prideful as to say that I will never, ever spank them. I don't think I'm in a position to judge the parents who spank their kids, and I don't want to condemn the action until I've had more experience in actually raising children.

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#99 Old 11th Apr 2008 at 6:52 AM
Quote: Originally posted by BigBadBrat
Let's just put it this way his family and himself are some of the most respected folks in my community. They are loved by all. They are very loving people. He has five girls and all of them are more mature than most adults I know, even his youngest that is 10 yrs. old. Say what you want,but one of his girls is a missionary in Wales. Another daughter travels to other countries ministering to youth. Her and her husband are missionaries as well. He has another daughter who is a liason for the big brothers and big sisters clubs of America. His youngest sings well enough at 10 to be on the adult American Idol and win the whole thing. He has raised and is raising up a generation of wonderfully polite women who are destined for greatness. The proof,my dear,is in the pudding. You are not gonna see them on Oprah crying over what their parents did to them. They are well adjusted,mature,responsible adults and young women who absolutely adore their parents. Three are on their own now and two are still at home. I believe the key is balance and consistency. Even though you spank when necessary you balance it with love,attention, and training. You are also consistent. My pastor is obviously doing something right.



Perhaps, you should think for yourself and not let your pastor think for you. Just a thought.

But, I remember the case of a girl I was friends with when I went to elementary and middle school school, who was a straight A student, bright, intelligent, with a seemingly loving family. A little too perfect. But as time wore on, I learned more about her, her father sexually and physically abused her. She would get whippings if she made anything less than an A on anything at school, for example. Her mother was a coccaine addict. The entire situation was screwed up.

I am not saying that that is necessarily the case of your Pastor. I wouldn't know, as I have never met him. Bit it seems irresponsible to base your moral decision off of the actions of others. Even the ones who seem successful and happy can be quite dysfunctional on the inside. Its really hard to tell.


Anyway, I agree with our teacher friends here. It is quite possible to assert authority without acts of physical violence.
#100 Old 12th Apr 2008 at 4:52 PM
Spider, somehow, I just don't think that's the same. What you're describing is abuse. Abuse in more ways and on more levels than just one. I don't think that's a case of disciplining your young child because they've been bad. And I say young because I believe that a foundation has the be laid at an early age. It's not the same trying to teach a 4 year old and a 14 year old how to behave in public.

But I digress... Giving your child a swift slap on the butt, or if they really deserve it, something a little harder isn't the same beating your child with a closed fist. Anywhoo, I think spanking should really become less frequent the older they get.
 
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