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Instructor
#51 Old 15th Dec 2004 at 1:44 AM
Quote: Originally posted by numenor
@Quaxi
The idea about the Messagebox is good, but it doesn't solve this problem: if I download a recolored object from another user AND I don't have the simpe.packages (or I don't even have SimPE) that object won't work, obviously. So who shares its creations may be induced to pack the simpe.packages (or, which is worse, a "light" version of them) along with his objects, and this would be a tragedy!
Is it a good point, or am I saying jus bull**it?


No, i agree there. Those "light" packages were bugging me too!
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Instructor
#52 Old 15th Dec 2004 at 2:38 AM Last edited by Quaxi : 15th Dec 2004 at 7:19 PM. Reason: Removed the Downlaod
SimPE 0.12q-a is out, you will need this to use the attached File!

DO NOT USE THIS TO CREATE OBJECTS OR RECOLORS YOU WANT TO REDISTRIBUTE. This is untested and might produce Conflicts that stick with your work!

DO NOT REDISTRUBUTE THIS FILE! I PROMIS TO SEND SOME VAMPIRES AFTER YOU IF YOU DO :twisted: :naughty:

THIS IS A TESTING RELEASE. It is only supposed to be used to find the most stable way of doing this. AGAIN DONT USE THIS IF YOU WANT TO CREATE REAL STUFF. It will be included in the Release Version of SimPE as soon as the People here feel it is save to be included!

So, Please be reasonable and don't use this File for anything else than Testing stuff. I Hope this was clear enough!
Instructor
#53 Old 15th Dec 2004 at 2:57 AM Last edited by pinhead : 15th Dec 2004 at 5:36 AM.
Quote: Originally posted by Quaxi
DO NOT REDISTRUBUTE THIS FILE! I PROMIS TO SEND SOME VAMPIRES AFTER YOU IF YOU DO :twisted: :naughty:


LOL!!
Well, if will be females vampires i think that i will redistribute! :twisted:

I really like to join this thread but i'm very busy... crap!

lol
The ModFather
retired moderator
#54 Old 15th Dec 2004 at 8:25 AM
Got the file. I'll test the new versione ASAP, in the meantime... THANKS! :yippee:
But I don't understand what "internal definitions.txt" is supposed to be for... It's identical to the readme (even the same typos LOL )

*runs to take a brief look at the new SimPE before going to work* :sprint:
One horse disagreer of the Apocalypse
#55 Old 15th Dec 2004 at 9:31 AM
Can you explain more about not using the object workshop? I have just cloned an object I am working on, using the object workshop plugin from version 12p. Does this mean I must scrap it and start again?
Administrator of Loverat's Tea and Underpants
Original Poster
#56 Old 15th Dec 2004 at 1:17 PM
I've just downloaded and I'll take a look right away. Just wanted to say thanks. :D

RG
Instructor
#57 Old 15th Dec 2004 at 1:20 PM
The Clone Feature is working without Problems. The warning is all about the Color Options (that were not available in 0.12p).
Administrator of Loverat's Tea and Underpants
Original Poster
#58 Old 15th Dec 2004 at 2:05 PM
OK... this is just to make sure I'm clear about what what I'm looking at, because I am a little confused.

If I select "Enanble Color Options" for an object that ALREADY has color options, I create a full clone of the object.

If I select Enable Color Options on an object that has only one one option originally, I create extended GMND and default MMAT. (This if still only including only one material for objects with multiple materials... for instance the Sunflower it only creates an option to recolor the vase, not the flower)

What I think should happen if I select "Enable Color Options" on an object that has only one originally is... the exact same thing that happens for an object that has more than one color in the default game. Make a clone. Only the clone would include the extended GMND and default MMAT. Then it's safe to distribute. And that would only be useful to people who want to make custom colors for just one or 2 things that don't originally have color options. If I downloaded that object and I have the all_GMND.package and all_MMAT.package, then what I'd do is extract that file's custom MMAT, MATD, and TXTR... change a few values in the MMAT so it points to the original object's CRES and GUID, and repackage for my own use.

I really like the pop-up window to select which parts of am object you want to recolor, but it would be great if I could select multiple items in that box. If I wanted to recolor a standard staircase, I'd want all the parts of it at once. I don't know if anyone has recolored an object like this yet... it's an interesting example to look at because although you recolor many parts individually, the game changes all those parts as a group... you don't separately select the stairs and the left reailing and the right railing colors.

For modular stairs... I haven't looked much at these, but I think the only way to make new colors of those would be a clone every time if even THAT is possible, due to the fact that the railing is tacked on from a separate catalog item. I don't know if that railing tool is even multi-texture-aware.

RG
Administrator of Loverat's Tea and Underpants
Original Poster
#59 Old 15th Dec 2004 at 2:13 PM
Ah... The stairs! I see now. There's a separate MMAT for each textured part of the object. To make them all change without the catalog displaying separate options for each part, the CRES puts all those parts together as a single color option. Cool. Sorry... just learning.

RG
Instructor
#60 Old 15th Dec 2004 at 2:19 PM
Quote: Originally posted by RGiles
If I select "Enanble Color Options" for an object that ALREADY has color options, I create a full clone of the object.


Yes, but this package will not be saved by the Game, it was just for me to validate some stuff in the Debug Process, the Real Plugin won't show this.

Quote:
If I select Enable Color Options on an object that has only one one option originally, I create extended GMND and default MMAT. (This if still only including only one material for objects with multiple materials... for instance the Sunflower it only creates an option to recolor the vase, not the flower)

It does? If the Option was already enabled it should do nothing! The tool can't be used to enable more than one Color Option.

Quote:
What I think should happen if I select "Enable Color Options" on an object that has only one originally is... the exact same thing that happens for an object that has more than one color in the default game. Make a clone. Only the clone would include the extended GMND and default MMAT. Then it's safe to distribute. And that would only be useful to people who want to make custom colors for just one or 2 things that don't originally have color options. If I downloaded that object and I have the all_GMND.package and all_MMAT.package, then what I'd do is extract that file's custom MMAT, MATD, and TXTR... change a few values in the MMAT so it points to the original object's CRES and GUID, and repackage for my own use.

I wouldn't like that. I mean that would lead into hundreds of Objects in the Catalog which all have the same Shape but only one or two Color Options! Don't think this would be too great!

Quote:
it would be great if I could select multiple items in that box. If I wanted to recolor a standard staircase, I'd want all the parts of it at once. I don't know if anyone has recolored an object like this yet... it's an interesting example to look at because although you recolor many parts individually, the game changes all those parts as a group... you don't separately select the stairs and the left reailing and the right railing colors.

OK.
The ModFather
retired moderator
#61 Old 15th Dec 2004 at 2:40 PM
I have made many tests and got to the same conclusions as RGiles, more or less. Maybe I haven't understood RGiles well, but if I use the Enable Col. Opt. on an original 1-color object, it creates the GMND and MMAT; then if I use the same option on the same object SimPE just treats it as a multi-color object (creates a clone).
My question is: in the Clone / Color Option selector I can find only: original 1-color objects, 1-color obj "extended" by me, multi-state objects (dirty/clean, lit/unlit, no matter how many colors they have). I can't find simple original multicolor objects (tables, chairs...). Is it intentional?
Instructor
#62 Old 15th Dec 2004 at 2:50 PM
No it is not! Maybe they are not stored in the Objects.package? The tool does only offer objectes defined there!
Administrator of Loverat's Tea and Underpants
Original Poster
#63 Old 15th Dec 2004 at 3:24 PM Last edited by RGiles : 15th Dec 2004 at 3:34 PM.
Temporary, you are not stupid :D

Quote: Originally posted by Quaxi
It does? If the Option was already enabled it should do nothing! The tool can't be used to enable more than one Color Option.


This was in testing with the plugin you posted on this thread, installed in SimPE12q_a. I thought what you posted here was MEANT to enable it. :D

Quote: Originally posted by Quaxi
I wouldn't like that. I mean that would lead into hundreds of Objects in the Catalog which all have the same Shape but only one or two Color Options! Don't think this would be too great!


Well here's my thinking... If we allow Enable Color Options for a single object, then many people will not understand that they don't need it if they have all_GMND.package and all_MMAT.package, and many people will go right ahead and distribute it. They WILL. There's nothing in the world which will stop them Because you know how people are.

So I can think of only 2 options which are people-proof.

1) Enable Color Options is a global procedure. It makes the all_GMND.package and all_MMAT.package. People can make their own, or they can download one if they are not a modder and don't use SimPE or just don't want to spend the time. And too bloody bad for people who only want to enable it in one object... it's not safe to distribute, so they either can't have it, or they can extract it from all_GMND and all_MMAT. If they can't figure out how to do that, they aren't clever enough to have it.

or 2) Enable Color Options creates a clone which includes default MMAT and extended GMND. This would please he people who only want to enable color options in one object and don't want to have all_GMND and all_MMAT. It's safe to distribute, but you're right, it IS a pain in the ass for those downloading.

I vote for option 1. I don't really care if people only want to enable color options in one object only. Letting them do it in a very easy way means letting people who don't know what it is make it. They will say, "Oh, it works fine! I tested it a LOT! I can share it!"

However, when cloning an object, enabling color options in that clone should always be an option anyway. This is for people who are adding objects to the catalog which were not originally in the catalog. They may want to make several available colors of their Doll or Globe.

RG
The ModFather
retired moderator
#64 Old 15th Dec 2004 at 3:25 PM
OMG! What's happened to MTS2 site? It has disappeared all at once!
Phew! Now it's back...
I was saying (before the blackout would delete my post) that those objects definively are in objects06.package, and are listed into your own OBJD.txt. Am I the one to have this problem? Can you find in the selector something like the "NuMica Allinall Card Table"? I can't.
Another thing I just noticed: what's happened to the BHAV wrapper? I can't select any more the lines of the BHAV, just click on the true/false links. Maybe I have a corrupted installation...
The ModFather
retired moderator
#65 Old 15th Dec 2004 at 3:38 PM
I agree with RGiles on option 1 *but* if you enable color option to an object and then you clone it, the new GMND and MMAT will be cloned along with the other files. This way, the object will appear in the catalog as a standalone object, so we are back at the starting point: there is a way to stop modders to share objects that don't comply with our standards? I fear the answer is no...
Administrator of Loverat's Tea and Underpants
Original Poster
#66 Old 15th Dec 2004 at 3:59 PM
The answer is no there's no way to make people conform to standards, *but* at least we are limiting their ability to share packages that cause conflicts. That's about as much as we can do. Making it as easy as one click for people to cause conflicts just strikes me as a very poor idea.

I think it's better to have people distributing a safe package that is a pain in the ass than a package that is less of a pain, but unsafe.

RG
Instructor
#67 Old 15th Dec 2004 at 4:02 PM
If we do it the way you suggest i fear this is what happens instead:

The People who are unaware of the SimPE.package files will try to recolor Objects and find that it isn't working. Then they find a thread somwhere that tells them "if you clone the Object blabla.." you will have a working recolored Object anyone can use.

So instead of distributing a file that has 90% data that isn't usefull to them, they will decide to simply make acloned Object and ditribute that one. That will cause the Players to have the same Object over and over in the Catalog!

If we let the Enable option enabled, the unaware useres won't redistribute them, which will cause their games not working, and they will start to look for help. There they could be told that they also need to redistribute the SimPe.packages.
If they decide to share the SimPE.package file they have created, you will have the GMND Files twice, which will slow down the loading but you won't have an Object several Times in the Catalog.

So it isn't people prove no matter how me solve this I Think. And a more personal concern about this. If we decide to disable this Option and people don't know that they need extra Files to make this work, I'll star getting tons of Mails from people telling me that they found a Bug (I know I am a lazy and self involved person )
Lab Assistant
#68 Old 15th Dec 2004 at 4:19 PM
The more i think about it, the more i think that "EnableAllColorOptions.package" would be best solution for this problem. Otherwise we'll get into a big mess, if it was to me, i wouldnt even add such an option to SimPe, but simply make a package and publish it somewhere where everyone can download it.
The ModFather
retired moderator
#69 Old 15th Dec 2004 at 4:37 PM
Quote: Originally posted by RGiles
1) Enable Color Options is a global procedure.

Quote: Originally posted by Quaxi
If we let the Enable option enabled, the unaware useres won't redistribute them, which will cause their games not working, and they will start to look for help. There they could be told that they also need to redistribute the SimPe.packages.
If they decide to share the SimPE.package file they have created, you will have the GMND Files twice, which will slow down the loading but you won't have an Object several Times in the Catalog.

Quote: Originally posted by phervers
The more i think about it, the more i think that "EnableAllColorOptions.package" would be best solution for this problem.


It seems to me that we are all saying the same thing, more or less. The Enable option should be enabled, as a global procedure. If someone asks for help because his objects don't work in other people's games they could be told that they have to share the whole all_GMND + all_MMAT packages (or post a link to download them, or suggest to create a local copy using SimPE) With the global GMND and MMAT packages, there's no risk to have conflicting duplicate files.
Administrator of Loverat's Tea and Underpants
Original Poster
#70 Old 15th Dec 2004 at 4:38 PM
You're not a lazy self-involved person. :D

I can see your point. But I don't think we'd have trouble getting the word out that "If you download these 2 files you can recolor ANY object now!" I think that word would spread pretty fast, and people would know about it.

I guess that your suggestion of having the tool pop up a warning about not redistributing the packages created might cause the least amount of irritation when all's said and done, especially if it gives a link to where to get the full packages which allow you to create new color options in a way that CAN be shared.

Ah... you're amazing for taking all this input for us. Self-absorbed and lazy? Yeah, right? :D
Instructor
#71 Old 15th Dec 2004 at 4:47 PM
Ok then. This is how i'll implement it.

1.) The Enable Option will be removed (I won't enable it for Coled objects, otherwise People will start building clones instead of using the SimPE.package)

2.) If you try to create a Recolor for an object that doesn't have one SimPE will look for the SimPE.package Files and warn the User that he has to download and reditribute a Link to that File otherwise the Object won't work (this should save me from the mail and yes, I am lazy :D)

3.) I will continue to refer to the poackages as SimPE.package, but I will rename them to AllGMND.package and AllMMAT.package

4.) let the user select multiple Items from the SubSet list

Hope I coverd everything now.
Administrator of Loverat's Tea and Underpants
Original Poster
#72 Old 15th Dec 2004 at 4:48 PM
Quote: Originally posted by phervers
The more i think about it, the more i think that "EnableAllColorOptions.package" would be best solution for this problem. Otherwise we'll get into a big mess, if it was to me, i wouldnt even add such an option to SimPe, but simply make a package and publish it somewhere where everyone can download it.

This was my thought as well, and pretty much the thought that I've been sticking to from the begining of the discussion, although "EnableAllColorOptions.package" (has to be split into 2 parts, because it installs to 2 directories). If I were to add the option to SimPE at all, I'd make it generate the full list for those who would rather roll their own than download. But I'd personally probably not add it at all. It would spand a LONG time building those 2 packages. Faster for people to download, provided there'sa willing host, and there always will be.

Quaxi's concern is that some people will only want recolors on one object, so they'll make it as a clone, and we'll have billions of clones being downloaded, making the catalogs huge. Which is a valid concern.

RG
Administrator of Loverat's Tea and Underpants
Original Poster
#73 Old 15th Dec 2004 at 4:55 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Quaxi
Hope I coverd everything now.

I think it does, actually, and solves that "1000 cloned Bella Squared" problem. The work then would be to teach people who want to add options to their new catalog item that they cloned from a non-catalog item... how to do that. If those objects are covered in the SimPE.package files, then teching them how to do that will be a breaze, but I don't know if they will be since I am not sure how you're generating the list. But we'll see what you come up with and decide what information needs to be shared when we have the result.

RG
Field Researcher
#74 Old 15th Dec 2004 at 4:58 PM
Quote: Originally posted by RGiles
The answer is no there's no way to make people conform to standards, *but* at least we are limiting their ability to share packages that cause conflicts. That's about as much as we can do. Making it as easy as one click for people to cause conflicts just strikes me as a very poor idea.

I think it's better to have people distributing a safe package that is a pain in the ass than a package that is less of a pain, but unsafe.

RG



Actually I think the community itself, while you could not 'make' them, would adhere to a stated standard if it means items are safer and will not conflict. Look at how quickly everyone floaked to the magic cookie and how fast the community learned to make sure the site they were doensloading form used it - or else they didn't take their objects. I think people would go along with a standard to support this - if they want to be able to distribute items safely

Come visit www.variousimmers.net where my original objects and recolors now reside. The site hosts many other creators, moddres and developers.
The ModFather
retired moderator
#75 Old 15th Dec 2004 at 5:00 PM
Quaxi, you're wonderful; you showed a biblical patience with all of us...
For the name of the files, I just found easier to refer to them as allGMND and allMMAT, but obviously the names are irrelevant (as a Borg would say).
I suggest a more descriptive name that should include reference to SimPE and a warning to not move/rename/delete the file.
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