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Demon Sheep
retired moderator
Original Poster
#1 Old 18th Jul 2008 at 10:38 PM Last edited by fanseelamb : 4th Aug 2008 at 1:55 AM.
Default hair mesh troubles - some areas look too dark (yay it's fixed! no wait, it broke again! oh yay it's fixed again!)
I'm converting this female hair from the EA Store for males, and noticed an odd little issue. There's a seam where the bangs meet the rest of the hair - the bangs look darker than the rest. The closeup below shows the original Maxis hair, the 3-in-1 pic is my converted hair, and the other pic shows the Material Definitions for the affected groups (alpha7 is the bangs, hair is the lighter part). I thought the material definitions could be the culprit but don't know exactly what the problem is. I do know it's not the actual textures... they're the right colour and look perfect in Milkshape. It's not too noticeable in-game so I'd rather let it be than add more layers to cover it up... but does anyone know what could be causing this? I'd like to fix it if it's relatively simple.
Screenshots
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Mad Poster
#2 Old 19th Jul 2008 at 3:28 AM
Are you sure it's not something in the texture? I can't even see what you're talking about. I mean, I can see the seam, but the bangs look the same colour as most of the rest of the hair. I do see light patches on the sides and around the crown at the back, and they do contrast with the rest of the hair. Is that what you mean?
Demon Sheep
retired moderator
Original Poster
#3 Old 19th Jul 2008 at 4:22 AM
Yeah that's what I mean. The front is one mesh group and for some reason it's displaying darker than the other mesh groups. Or at least darker than the main "hair" mesh group. But when I apply the texture to it in Milkshape it looks normal, so I'm fairly certain it's not the texture.
Scholar
#4 Old 19th Jul 2008 at 12:38 PM
Align normals between those two mesh parts, see if that helps? Otherwise it's the material definition thingies. or it could be a texture match up problem, maybe you can look at the UV mapping as well.
Is this just another instance of fans having to fix up EAxis mistakes? Sheesh.

Please visit WickedNoukFamily Forum for my creations.
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Demon Sheep
retired moderator
Original Poster
#5 Old 19th Jul 2008 at 10:30 PM
Well, it's not the normals. I just tried aligning them... didn't work. And I applied a solid colour texture to make extra sure it's not the texture... it's not. The solid colour looks darker on the front group even though it's the exact same colour. So I guess it's the material definition then? But I have no clue how to fix it. Ah well. The mesh is giving me far worse problems right now actually... can't get the teen mesh to work at all. Will have to read more tutorials about that. Thanks for the help though, Nouk! If only EAxis had done it right and for all ages. Hah. Yeah. I crack me up too.
Not actually evil.
#6 Old 19th Jul 2008 at 10:53 PM Last edited by CatOfEvilGenius : 19th Jul 2008 at 11:02 PM.
fansee - I've replied with a picture. I've never made a sims hair mesh, but I did study computer graphics, so my answer's based on that. In MilkShape, zoom in really close and use the wireframe overlay and color by group to see if you have intersecting polygons or not.

Of course, if it is the material definition as you suspect, this won't help at all.
Have you had a chance to look at the material definitions to see where they differ? It's been a while since I looked at a TXMT, but you would want stuff like specular highlights, diffuse lighting, ambient color, etc. to be the same for both mesh parts, they would affect color/lighting.
Screenshots

Please spay or neuter your pets. --- Cat Music Video! --- my meshes
Demon Sheep
retired moderator
Original Poster
#7 Old 20th Jul 2008 at 4:46 AM
That's very interesting Cat. It makes sense and it sounds like a plausible explanation but doesn't seem to solve the issue. On the plus side though, your points prompted me to check out some other vertices on the mesh and I fixed an issue where parts of the hair were flickering in-game. Turns out quite a few of the vertices that should have been perfectly aligned were not. It's *such* a glitchy mesh omg! Anyway, I'm guessing it could be those material definitions after all. I attached a pic of them in the first post, but I don't know which value would be the culprit....

Thanks for all your help in any case!
Not actually evil.
#8 Old 20th Jul 2008 at 7:48 AM
Well, the stuff I suspected, the Phong lighting model variables, those are all the same.
So they are NOT the problem. (I have a new theory below...) The Phong lighting variables I suspected, but ruled out, would be:

stdMatSpecCoef <-- This is the RGB color of your "shiny highlights",
aka "specular highlights", yours is a mid gray

stdMatSpecPower <-- This is how bright and tight your "shiny highlights" are,
the higher this is, the more pronounced highlights you have,
the lower it is, the more matte your stuff looks

stdMatDiffCoeff <-- This is your diffuse color RGB, it's the base color of your object,
all over, yours is a darker gray, but since you're using a texture,
this is not as apparent (if nothing else works, maybe adjusting
this darker/lighter could help match up your textures, but I'm
not sure how much of it, if any, shows up when you use
a texture)

The thing that IS different in those two TXMTs is the alpha blend variables.
One mesh uses alpha blending (see through stuff), the other does not (all opaque).
I'm guessing the alpha blend one is the bangs?

stdMatAlphaBlendMode : none <-- this is totally opaque, use only RGB
stdMatAlphaBlendMode : blend <-- allow alpha blending, use RGBA, see through stuff

Now, if you allow alpha blending, you will several other variables whose names start with stdMatAlphaBlendMode, that you don't see if you don't allow alpha blending.

==> So here's my new plan. <==

Try enabling alpha blending for BOTH crown and bangs. Make all the stdMatAlphaWhatever variables the same. I suspect maybe allowing alpha blending somewhat slightly changes the color, though it really oughtn't do that. This is Maxis though, so I wouldn't be surprised if their code does stuff it shouldn't.

I'm also not surprised you found all those glitchy vertices that make stuff blink in and out. Maxis is charging people money for this! Argh! Me, I'm waiting for your fixed and spiffy mesh.

Please spay or neuter your pets. --- Cat Music Video! --- my meshes
Demon Sheep
retired moderator
Original Poster
#9 Old 20th Jul 2008 at 10:26 PM
Eeeee look!!! Success!!!!

I changed the stdMatDiffCoeff to 0.99,0.99,0.99,1 for all the alpha groups and left it at 0.8,0.8,0.8,1 for the hair (crown) group. Now the seam is gone and the hair looks lighter overall, which is a plus.... I didn't like the original muddy colours and had planned to change them so yay!!

Thank you SO much Cat.... I wouldn't have known what to try without your explanations. Oh btw, setting the crown to "blend" didn't help at all, in case you were curious. And thanks to Nouk and fakepeeps too! You both mentioned helpful things as well.

Now to tackle the other ages...
Screenshots
Not actually evil.
#10 Old 20th Jul 2008 at 10:31 PM
Great! I'm glad, looks better. Good to know about the "blend" not affecting it too.

Please spay or neuter your pets. --- Cat Music Video! --- my meshes
Demon Sheep
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Original Poster
#11 Old 22nd Jul 2008 at 2:10 AM
Okay, new issue! Now I've scaled down the mesh for teens, and the spikey part on top of the mesh looks a bit weird. See how it's darker than it is on the adult mesh, and has a noticeable seam sort of between the head and the spikey part? What's up with that? All I did was scale the entire mesh, I didn't move around the spikey parts at all. Any suggestions as to the cause or the fix would be appreciated.
Screenshots
Not actually evil.
#12 Old 22nd Jul 2008 at 4:18 AM Last edited by CatOfEvilGenius : 22nd Jul 2008 at 4:27 AM.
Is the spikey part all one group, or is it in several groups? If in several groups, I can see how scaling might give you that result. Have you tried tweaking the vertex position by hand? Or are they all too close together to select easily? Try selecting a small area and doing "frame selection" to zoom in?

Please spay or neuter your pets. --- Cat Music Video! --- my meshes
Demon Sheep
retired moderator
Original Poster
#13 Old 22nd Jul 2008 at 9:37 PM
It's several groups. I've tried tweaking the vertices and adjusting the normals, but nothing seems to help. One thing that I forgot to mention (till Tig asked about it) is that the teen mesh has 9 groups while the adult mesh has 8. There was no 8 group teen mesh to use as a base, so I used one of Melodie's age conversions and collapsed the extra group to 3 vertices snapped together in the middle of the head.

I've tried changing the group order so the extra one is below the head instead of on top. I've tried changing its opacity to match that of the head. I've tried shuffling the group names and corresponding comments so the extra group is alpha3 instead of alpha17. No matter what I try, it looks the same.

I also noticed that on the other spike, sort of low on the spike, it's transparent where it shouldn't be. I've attached a pic of that although it's a bit hard to see. Now I'm all out of ideas and it's getting very frustrating. Any suggestions... anything at all.... would be appreciated.
Screenshots
Not actually evil.
#14 Old 22nd Jul 2008 at 11:01 PM
I have no fixes right now, BUT consider this... Will other folks notice the slight imperfections you're trying to fix? Don't get too upset if we can't find a fix for some of these things because if they're not very noticeable, folks won't mind. It's already much better than the Maxis mesh. If I think of something more useful, I'll let you know.

If I knew how to change the thingie that says you must have 8 groups, not 9, I'd suggest that. I think maybe that's in the GMND, but I don't recall... But only if you thing changing the number of groups was part of the problem, otherwise, no.

Please spay or neuter your pets. --- Cat Music Video! --- my meshes
Demon Sheep
retired moderator
Original Poster
#15 Old 23rd Jul 2008 at 1:55 AM
Yay, I fixed it! Decided to start from scratch and re-import the base mesh, then *carefully* rename the new mesh's groups and copy comments leaving everything in the proper order. Guess I must have mucked something up the first time because now it looks right. Yay! Thanks again Cat! And thanks Tig & HP for all your help in #create!
Lab Assistant
#16 Old 25th Jul 2008 at 10:01 AM
Quote: Originally posted by fanseelamb
I changed the stdMatDiffCoeff to 0.99,0.99,0.99,1 for all the alpha groups and left it at 0.8,0.8,0.8,1 for the hair (crown) group. Now the seam is gone and the hair looks lighter overall, which is a plus.... I didn't like the original muddy colours and had planned to change them so yay!!


I've just had exactly the same problem you've had with the odd shading.

I followed the above, and it's worked with mine too.

Thankyou so much for this, I was pulling my hair out trying to alter the colour files to match.

Sorry, no more requests for the preg teens.
Demon Sheep
retired moderator
Original Poster
#17 Old 25th Jul 2008 at 6:29 PM
That's wonderful, t2suggas! I'm glad the info was helpful.
Scholar
#18 Old 30th Jul 2008 at 5:43 PM
woot! Well done

Please visit WickedNoukFamily Forum for my creations.
Can't take requests, I'm completely swamped with unfinished projects! :O
Demon Sheep
retired moderator
Original Poster
#19 Old 3rd Aug 2008 at 1:59 AM Last edited by fanseelamb : 3rd Aug 2008 at 3:07 AM.
Argh! OMG. After taking a little break from this mesh, I decided to carry on and do the child version. Now that child version is doing the same thing as the teen version did. See how the side spikes are dark at the top and there's a weird seam that shouldn't be there? I've tried everything I can think of. Tried doing what fixed the teen version, tried using 2 different meshes as a base, tried fixing the layering about 5 different ways.... nothing helps. Argh! Any ideas? Anything at all?
Screenshots
Mad Poster
#20 Old 3rd Aug 2008 at 5:11 PM Last edited by Rapsheba555 : 3rd Aug 2008 at 5:33 PM.
have you tried selecting just the vertexes along the the spot where it's all dark and just aligning the normals on those instead of the whole group?

PS: That is one VERY ugly child i think he's had botox? Anyway, keep working on the hair! it looks good!

"When life gives you lemons, see the lemons, feels the lemons, BE THE LEMONS!"

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Demon Sheep
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Original Poster
#21 Old 3rd Aug 2008 at 7:05 PM
It's not the normals. The same exact thing happened with the teen version (see post 11) and redoing the layer names & comments fixed it, so I figure it must be a layering problem. Trouble is, I've redone the layers & comments and tried fixing it like 10 different ways but nothing helps. Thanks for insulting my sim though.
Mad Poster
#22 Old 3rd Aug 2008 at 7:12 PM Last edited by Rapsheba555 : 3rd Aug 2008 at 7:18 PM.
Sorry. *awkward silence* Heh, um, sorry. No hard feelings? He just wasn't my style. i didn't mean to insult you. i'll just quietly go away now before I say anything else that makes me look like an even bigger jerk.

"When life gives you lemons, see the lemons, feels the lemons, BE THE LEMONS!"

Take a look-see, hmm...? Go on, click them:
The Super Mario Project, Nintendorks Island-Celebrating 2 Years Online!
Demon Sheep
retired moderator
Original Poster
#23 Old 4th Aug 2008 at 1:53 AM
It's okay Rapsheba555, don't worry about it.

But guess what?! It's fixed again, yay!! Super huge thanks to Tig for helping in #create chat. Without her I would have given up on the sucker. Now here's what fixed it:

1) I made extra triple sure that the groups on my child version were in the same order as the original adult version - just looking at the shapes, ignoring names.

2) I renamed all the layer names (and ModelName in the comments) on my child version to the exact same names as the child base mesh layer names.

3) I copied all the rest of the comments (particularly the Opacity) from the original adult mesh to my new child mesh.

The third step was key, because this particular mesh has an odd Opacity number for the second-from-top layer. It's -1, where it would usually be something much higher. So I'm betting that was the main culprit.

Anyhow. It's fixed! OMG yay! *does the dance of joy*

Thanks again to everyone who helped, or tried to help, and especially to Tig. .
Mad Poster
#24 Old 4th Aug 2008 at 2:19 PM
glad you got it fixed! Again, sorry.

"When life gives you lemons, see the lemons, feels the lemons, BE THE LEMONS!"

Take a look-see, hmm...? Go on, click them:
The Super Mario Project, Nintendorks Island-Celebrating 2 Years Online!
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