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#76 Old 20th Jul 2010 at 10:26 PM
*sees Twilight reference*

NNNOOOOOOOOOOO!! *head asplodes *

/ Just had to!

Is that a shillelagh in your pocket, or are you just sinning against God?
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#77 Old 20th Jul 2010 at 10:37 PM
Quote: Originally posted by iCad
You are indeed correct, Vanito, that there are many "versions" of Christianity. They're called "denominations." A Catholic has different beliefs than a Lutheran who has different beliefs than a Baptist who has different beliefs than a Mormon, etc. Beyond that, individuals even within the same denomination have different interpretations of different specific issues and different specific Scriptures. That's the result of people, you know, thinking. Of people NOT being sheep.

This is precisely why I bristle when you go off saying things like "USA Christians believe 'X'," as if we all believe the same things. Hardly! "USA Christians" have beliefs every bit as diverse as Christians in any other place in the world. It's just that our media and, apparently, the media in other countries like to focus on specific individuals who have "newsworthy" beliefs that get emotions flaring and ratings pouring in. Yippee.

For a Christian, I think the key to finding the truth is putting aside what you think is right or what you are told is correct and getting to know God for yourself. At least, that's what has worked for me.

If everyone gets to know the same god - it does not seem logical they come to very different conclusions about what said god considers to be wrong or right, and what he considers to be "sin" or no "sin". The christian god seems to have some communication issues. It makes no sense for people or institutions to pray and get to know the same god, then to get a totally different answer on even simple questions like "who was jesus - god himself or his son?"

The dutch media does not focus much on USA christianity. Where dutch churches already do not get much attention, USA ones rarely reach the news. (Unlike dutch mosques where the supposedly all evil terrorist hide..). Which is why most dutch people have no idea USA christians are -on average- that extreme. Holland we already consider the Christian Union here to be very extreme.


"When the moon is in the seventh house
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars"
Scholar
#78 Old 20th Jul 2010 at 10:50 PM Last edited by Nouk : 20th Jul 2010 at 11:05 PM.
Christian Union extreme? Try SGP. XD

Please visit WickedNoukFamily Forum for my creations.
Can't take requests, I'm completely swamped with unfinished projects! :O
Undead Molten Llama
#79 Old 20th Jul 2010 at 11:38 PM
@ Otter: I'm glad you're taking my comments in the spirit in which they were thought up and offered!

See, I think Christians (and non-Christians, actually!) have gotten far too hung up on the reward/punishment thing. As in, "heaven is one's reward for believing and hell is the punishment for Evil Non-Believers." Bull! That concept is literally medieval, wrought by the medieval church as a means of increasing its membership and therefore increasing its temporal political and financial control. So the entire concept, the entire reward/punishment dichotomy, is a direct result of CORRUPTION. It is so blatantly obvious to me, both from what I've learned of God and what I have learned of history. But, unfortunately, it seems to have been passed down and has become part of the general cultural/religious mindset, I guess because it does sort of encourage socially-beneficial behavior. I see it as a lie, however "well-intentioned" it is, and quite frankly, it...Well, it doesn't offend me, but it does exasperate me. And, of course, the dichotomy is preached by Christians of the more "hellfire and brimstone" flavor. But that doesn't make them right.

Really, if one reads Scripture closely and in cultural/historical context and in literary context, one realizes that "heaven" is NOT a reward for "goodness" or even for belief. Nor is it a place. It is merely a state of being, and it is merely the consequence of choosing to believe in Jesus as the Son of God. The only thing that it "gets" you, the only thing that some might see as a "reward," is the removal of one's sinful nature so that one can have a face-to-face relationship with God. Such a relationship is different from the relationship that a believer has here on Earth because a sinful person can only be with God "at a distance," so to speak. So in my own case, I believe as I believe not because I think I'm going to be "rewarded" or because I'm seeking some elusive "comfort" because I'm afraid of death (something I neither fear nor anticipate), but only because I truly want to know the God whom I firmly believe exists, and I want face-to-face interaction with Him. And I've become convinced of the only path that exists to do so. That's all.

So, if your hypothetical horrible deathbed repenter thinks he's going to be rewarded with everything that he's always wanted or whatever it is that people think heaven is, then he is sorely mistaken and is in for quite the shock. He will be "rewarded" with the unimaginable glare of God's light shining right in his face, into his soul, and in the face of his horrible deeds with no real time for repentance and with no earthly time to get to know God "gently," he will likely be very...uncomfortable. Because God is, indeed, loving...but He is also just. So I would not at all envy your deathbed repenter. It's not that he's going to be tormented or punished or anything like that. He will have the same "reward" as any other believer...but he will feel the weight of what he has done, without having been able to repent of it. That's the "just" part. Becoming sinless doesn't mean that one forgets all that one has done. If anything, I think one will become even more aware of those deeds, because one will be able to compare it against a sinless nature. So heaven, IMO, isn't all that some indicate that it is.

And neither is hell. Again, if one reads the Scriptures carefully and realizes that things like Revelation are not meant to be read literally (which is clear from analysis of the text), then one also realizes that hell, too, is not a place but rather a state of being. Its primary characteristic is eternal separation from God. Which, guess what? Is exactly what we all have here on Earth, only it isn't guaranteed to be eternal. Those who choose not to believe...will simply experience more of what they are currently experiencing, in a way, the only difference being that at that point one will have no hope of ever being with God. And if one is/was OK with that notion prior to death, then I'm sure one would be eternally OK with that, yes? So, "hell" is not punishment, either. IMO, the only "bad" thing about hell is that it is...hopeless. And by "hope" I mean "the anticipation of something better than one's current situation." It is apparently an eternity of life much like what is experienced on Earth. I, personally, am not entirely fond of that notion, but it is also clearly not an existence of unending torture and torment, either...unless one is tortured and tormented now.

So, clearly, one earns neither heaven nor hell. In fact, scripture says that we all "deserve" hell in its separation-from-God sense and there's nothing to be done about that because we all, here on Earth, are sinners. So, we CHOOSE one or the other: Either be with God or not. Many people on this Earth have no desire to be with God for whatever reason. So why should they fear more not-being-with-God? But some of us do want to be with God for whatever reason and some of those people choose to believe that Jesus was telling the truth when He said that He is the only path to God. And so those people, me included, do what Jesus says. I personally wouldn't advocate anyone making a choice to be with God who doesn't really WANT to be with Him because the "purification process," so to speak, is not easy and is sometimes not entirely pleasant. This makes me a very poor evangelist, indeed.

So as far as I'm concerned, you in your good deeds without belief are "better" than a person who believes but who does good only because they think it makes them look good, because they think it earns them "heaven points" rather than because they actually feel the goodness of He who resides within them and so want to lead others to Him by example. "Goodness" born of a sense of obligation or, worse, out of fear is, to me, "less" than the selfless goodness in which you indulge. So I have every confidence that you will suffer no "punishment" for your disbelief, not because you have "earned" a lack of punishment by doing good but simply because separation from God is not punishment at all if one is and remains perfectly content with such separation. The true tragedy, in my opinion, would be a person who truly wants to know God and who thinks that "being good" will get them to that place, only to find that...it doesn't.

See? I'm a HORRIBLE evangelist. If you listen to me, you might come to the conclusion that hell might very well be more pleasant than heaven, for a good number of people. And you know what? You might be right about that. That's one of the things I've learned, you see. And God of all people knows this. Scripture says that the majority of people will choose hell. What people don't realize is that those people probably made/will make the right choice for themselves and that those who make the "heaven" choice are not "better" than those who make the "hell" choice. This, I have learned.

@ Vanito: Oh, it makes ALL KINDS of sense that people come to very different conclusions about God! Why? Because they're people. Flawed, fallible, stubborn, closed-minded, prideful, usually-deaf-to-God people. And in the end, many people including Christians will believe what they WANT to believe. A person who comes to God firmly believing that, for instance, homosexuals are evil will often continue to believe that homosexuals are evil because they think God says so and they find more people who agree with them. (And make no mistake: most homophobic Christians who weren't born to homophobic Christian parents were homophobic before they became Christian.) They will not look deeper into the issue, as I did, and they will not see or believe anything that disagrees with what they already believe. It is a VERY difficult prospect to change their minds; they will often not be willing to listen to whatever people who disagree with them have to say. These people are not at all "willing to be changed," and so, as I said, they fail at Christianity.

Because to truly seek God is to have the ONE characteristic that Christians are often seen as not having at all, as not being capable of having: An open mind. A willingness to admit that everything that one "knows" might well be wrong. One has to abandon ALL preconceived notions and have the willingness to set aside anything and everything that one currently believes. It's what in Christian circles is called "surrendering to God." BUT one must be careful to surrender only to God, not to false religious authority. The latter is a distressingly common mistake amongst Christians, especially when the false authority preaches what one already believes. But these characteristics are all very rare things in any human being, no matter what they believe. Having these characteristics runs contrary to our "self-sufficient" nature, our prideful thinking that we know everything and that we know what is best for us. I struggle with this every single day, constantly praying for willingness to be changed, but I'm slowly learning that the more I admit that I don't know...the more I DO know, and that makes it a little easier to continue to let go, every single day. And that, to me, is further confirmation of God's existence, although at this point I really don't need any more confirmation.

I'm mostly found on (and mostly upload to) Tumblr these days because, alas, there are only 24 hours in a day.
Muh Simblr! | An index of my downloads on Tumblr.
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#80 Old 20th Jul 2010 at 11:50 PM Last edited by kattenijin : 21st Jul 2010 at 12:18 AM.
Quote: Originally posted by Drakesecaravdis
I don't think that's all that's weird. it's because that takes away the tradition of marriage. it doesn't matter if you're atheist. how is it much of a wedding without a church?


Of the 60ish weddings I've been to in the past 20 years, not one has been in a church, or been performed by a member of clergy. Each one has had all of the trappings I consider part of a wedding (bridesmaids, white dresses, groomsmen, ushers, lots of flowers, receptions, wedding cake, etc). How are they any "less" of a marriage for not having been in a church? The marriage certificates (other than proper names) all look equal to me.


Kiwi: Haven't forgotten you, just had to go out of town semi-unexpectedly; (Knew I would be going, just not exactly when) and am now a new poppa, kinda! lol! I went to see the birth of my two new puppies, and now have to wait about 6 weeks for them to come home. I'd post cute pics, but they weren't cute at all lol! I'm still trying to hunt down specific info for you, so I can better explain where I'm coming from. One math equation in particular is proving quite elusive.

DarkCougar555 If your religion helps you to be more like Mother Theresa then it's a good thing. If you become more like Reverend Phelps, it isn't. People need to question "why", and not just follow like sheep.

Quote: Originally posted by Vanito
If you dont wanna break the laws of your faith.. you should stone your wife at the wedding night if shes not a virgin, you should cut out your eye if you look at a woman lustfully, you should kill your children who curse at you, kill gay men, kill witches, kill unbelievers, kill people of other religions. Furthemore you should kill anyone that commits adultery and Jesus refers to remarriage as adultery too. And kill wallmart people that work on sunday.

So.. you are either a serial killer... or just a christian on paper.


You forgot to kill anyone who: planted a vegtable garden, ate a cheeseburger, wore a cotton/polyester shirt/pants/skirt/etc, worshiped in a church with Jesus on a Cross, a statue of Mary, a statue of Joseph, a statue of a saint, ...

And, one small point of clarification, you are allowed to re-marry after divorce if your spouse has passed away.

Sarcasm is a body's natural defense against stupid.
Undead Molten Llama
#81 Old 21st Jul 2010 at 12:09 AM
Quote: Originally posted by kattenijin
Of the 60ish weddings I've been to in the past 20 years, not one has been in a church, or been performed by a member of clergy. Each one has had all of the trappings I consider part of a wedding (bridesmaids, white dresses, groomsmen, ushers, lots of flowers, receptions, wedding cake, etc). How are they any "less" of a marriage for not having been in a church? The marriage certificates (other than proper names) all look equal to me.


Hee hee...I wasn't married in a church, even though my husband and I were both Christian. I didn't belong to a church and still don't, and his church wasn't physically big enough to hold all of our friends/family. So, we were married in a park by his pastor. Churches are nice and picturesque, if that's your bent, but IMO they don't "make" (or break) a wedding. What's important is the commitment between the people being married, not where they say the words, for heaven's sake.

I'm mostly found on (and mostly upload to) Tumblr these days because, alas, there are only 24 hours in a day.
Muh Simblr! | An index of my downloads on Tumblr.
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#82 Old 21st Jul 2010 at 12:37 AM
Quote: Originally posted by iCad
It is merely a state of being, and it is merely the consequence of choosing to believe in Jesus as the Son of God.


This is probably the one thing that most keeps me away from Christianity. (Well, DUH! Now that I look at that sentence again, it's kinda self-evident that you can't possibly be Christian without a belief in Jesus.) I see no need for an intercessor between myself and God. Although God may be ultimately unknowable, and unscrutable to me, I'm not to Him; and He has no need of an intercessor either. That, and the fact that although Jesus lived for about 38 years, there is NOT ONE scrap of anything written by him personally. Everything has come second or third hand. I just find it hard to believe that he never found a need to even jot down a note or two; yet we have pages and pages by Mark, Luke, Paul, Matthew, etc.

Sarcasm is a body's natural defense against stupid.
Scholar
#83 Old 21st Jul 2010 at 5:46 AM
Quote: Originally posted by iCad
But fortunately, regardless, there are indicators of whether or not someone who says they're saved is truly "letting God in," so to speak. Guess what those indicators are? Their "works," the things that they say and do.


How can you determine that someone is actually 'letting God in", rather than simply having a change of heart? There's a saying that essentially says that it's okay to talk to God, but when God talks back, you're probably crazy. If God can't actually directly talk to you, how do you feel his influence? How do you know that you're not simply doing these things out of your own nature?
Lab Assistant
#84 Old 21st Jul 2010 at 8:34 AM
Quote: Originally posted by jooxis
Most "Christians" are not following all the Bible laws (in fact, doing some of the stuff the Bible tells you is okay could land you in jail in today's world, hah). People choose to follow which laws suit them and completely disregard those that don't. How many self-identified Christians are saving themselves for marriage? Very few, I'm sure. That's because saving yourself for marriage represents quite a challenge for most people so they try to justify sex before marriage as being okay according to the Bible (by interpreting it however they want). I'm also sure you have broken some of these laws as well.

Also, how can you claim that someone else is not a member of your faith? Anyone who identifies themselves as followers of a certain religion could be considered followers of that religion. You don't get a membership card or something that will accurately determine whether you're a follower of some religion.


Yeah, most of Christians are just Christians on paper (my brother first).

Well, there is "a membership card". Just wondering are you Orthodox? In Catholic Church you get certificate of baptism.

Second question, if I am born Buddhist and I am going to Buddha Temple, but at home I am praying to Allah, am I really Buddhist?

Quote: Originally posted by HystericalParoxysm
ivan17 - I'm not any kind of theist. I don't believe in one all-powerful creator (or multiple ones) - not the Christian god, not Zeus, not Buddah. There are no "laws" of my faith because I don't -have- a faith. I'm -not- an athiest - I believe in things, but there is no holy book, no priests, no temples for what I believe. Morality operates completely separately from religion. It can be dictated by it, but whether or not you actually obey it is an internal process and has nothing to do with what god you may or may not believe in. If all that keeps you from being an animal is your faith, I'd say you're on pretty shaky ground - your morality should be a core of your personality and a desire to be a good person and not fuck people over, not dictated by what someone else tells you you -should- do.


Okay, so when Jesus said that is wrong to kill, it is not sort of morality teaching? God is not dictating what I should or shouldn't do. He is just showing us way to heaven. We can accept it or not.

And I am bad person because I am posting about Christianity in Christianity topic.

Quote: Originally posted by Vanito
Just like the debate of wether jesus is the son of god or is god himself, christianity varies from place to place in what it believes.


The answer is simple. Jesus is God and He is Son of God. Have you ever heard about The Most Holy Trinity? JHWH/God is triune (God/Father, Jesus and Holy Spirit).


Abandoned account...
Scholar
#85 Old 21st Jul 2010 at 11:32 AM
Quote: Originally posted by ivan17
The answer is simple. Jesus is God and He is Son of God. Have you ever heard about The Most Holy Trinity? JHWH/God is triune (God/Father, Jesus and Holy Spirit).

You are telling me your version is 'the asnwer', while others claim their version is 'the answer' and not yours. I know the different fairytales from various christian sects, they all claim their version is true. Christianity has some issues with consistensy in the stories, thats what you get with no proof for any version. Your claim is equally likely as that of any other religious, and thats not very likely with all the religions this world has known.


"When the moon is in the seventh house
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars"
Instructor
#86 Old 21st Jul 2010 at 12:14 PM Last edited by jooxis : 21st Jul 2010 at 12:42 PM.
Quote: Originally posted by ivan17
Well, there is "a membership card". Just wondering are you Orthodox? In Catholic Church you get certificate of baptism.


I'm not Orthodox because I'm not religious (neither are my parents)... so being baptised means you belong to a religion? That would be a strange way of looking at it. My friend was baptised when she was a baby, today she is the most outspoken atheist I know.

Quote:
Second question, if I am born Buddhist and I am going to Buddha Temple, but at home I am praying to Allah, am I really Buddhist?


In the case of religion, you are what you define yourself as. If someone tells me they're a combination of Neo-Pagan/Wiccan with a splash of Buddhism - I'm not going to try to prove that they aren't. Because there's nothing to prove. You can't accurately determine what someone is when everyone's definition varies. The Westboro Baptists (all one hundred of them) believe they are the only "real" Christians. Their interpretation of that word is just as good as yours, ivan17.
Scholar
#87 Old 21st Jul 2010 at 12:33 PM
Quote: Originally posted by ivan17
Second question, if I am born Buddhist and I am going to Buddha Temple, but at home I am praying to Allah, am I really Buddhist?

YES. Period.

As Jooxis said; if you want to define yourself as Buddhist, then you are.

Quote: Originally posted by ivan17
Okay, so when Jesus said that is wrong to kill, it is not sort of morality teaching? God is not dictating what I should or shouldn't do. He is just showing us way to heaven. We can accept it or not.

*coughaslongasyouarechristiancough*

Anyway, accept, exactly? God's words, or Heaven? And just who should accept it, cause I really hope you don't mean everyone.

Is that a shillelagh in your pocket, or are you just sinning against God?
Undead Molten Llama
#88 Old 21st Jul 2010 at 7:26 PM
Quote: Originally posted by kattenijin
This is probably the one thing that most keeps me away from Christianity. (Well, DUH! Now that I look at that sentence again, it's kinda self-evident that you can't possibly be Christian without a belief in Jesus.)I see no need for an intercessor between myself and God. Although God may be ultimately unknowable, and unscrutable to me, I'm not to Him; and He has no need of an intercessor either.


Quite frankly, I as a "thinking person" don't see or understand the need for an intercessor, either. But I accept that I don't know everything, and so I know that I don't have all the pieces of the puzzle. All I know is that I tried to know and understand God without accepting Jesus and all of His implications, and it didn't work. But when I accepted Jesus, I found that I could know God. This leads me to believe that one intercessor (not a million of them, as the Catholics believe ) is indeed necessary, as much as intellectual me doesn't see why one is necessary at all. Of course, other people claim to know God without Jesus, and I can't say for certain whether or not they do. I'm not God.

Quote:
That, and the fact that although Jesus lived for about 38 years, there is NOT ONE scrap of anything written by him personally. Everything has come second or third hand. I just find it hard to believe that he never found a need to even jot down a note or two; yet we have pages and pages by Mark, Luke, Paul, Matthew, etc.


My thinking is that God wants us to believe ON FAITH, not because He wrote something down. Further, He wants believers to be the ones to spread faith in Him, not that people simply become convinced through "evidence" that He Himself left behind. For this reason, I do NOT accept the notion of the Bible being essentially written by God, but "only" by very wise-in-faith people who came to know Him well. For this reason, the devotion and reverence that many Christians show toward the Bible, usually at the expense of applying that devotion and reverence to God, disgusts me.

In any case, having faith seems to be very important to Him, and my feeling is that we are denied the "evidence" that we would accept as such of His existence for precisely this reason. I do not know why this is so, and many people see this as "cruel" or discriminatory in some way. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. My personal thinking is that it's actually a kind of protection. Those who have the ability to have faith might be able to better assimilate the paradox that is a being that exists entirely out of space/time and to whom our cherished scientific laws and scientific processes cannot apply. Perhaps it is true that those who cannot have faith or who have no willingness to have it would have their physical and spiritual brains fried by such a being. Thus, protection. As I said elsewhere, many people choose not to be with God, and my belief is that, for them, this might very well be the best choice. It doesn't make them "less" and it doesn't make faithy people "more;" it only makes each person exactly what they want to be. God wants to be with all of us, but I think He of anyone knows that not everyone wants to be with Him. And He will apparently not directly intervene in anyone's choice about that issue. He does not force people to believe.

Quote: Originally posted by Oaktree
How can you determine that someone is actually 'letting God in", rather than simply having a change of heart?


Honestly? I don't. Nor do I much care. The status of anyone else's relationship with God is not my domain because, quite honestly, I can't know because I am not God and cannot know another person's heart. I'm simply saying that if someone claims to be a believing Christian, then they can be evaluated by anyone against the Scripture I mentioned. If a believing Christian is "letting God in," then it is a guarantee that he/she will show more and more of the fruit of the Spirit and less and less of the slimier aspects of his/her sinful nature. But don't make of that more than it is.

People can certainly have changes of heart all on their own, can be "good" people (by society's definition, at least) or become "better" people, without a belief in a God and/or without "letting Him in." But for those of you who complain about, say, Christians who hate, I just wanted to point out that you can evaluate them with their own Scripture. You have the "authority" and indeed the right to do so and, in fact, if you do so you will be doing them a favor. You will be pointing them in the right direction even if you yourself think that Christianity is a crock of shit. If you're face-to-face with a "hating" Christian, then point out that Scripture to them. IF they are in the right place, and IF they are really feeling hate (rather than that merely being your perception), it will most certainly give them pause. Their human selves will become defensive because no one likes to be wrong, and they might not outwardly concede that you've struck a blow. They might, in fact, become angrier and perhaps more hateful because they are only human. But if they are indeed hating and they truly want to be "right with God," so to speak, then internally at least they WILL feel convicted by the Spirit who dwells within them, though not necessarily by you. It is then up to them whether or not to listen to the Spirit.

Quote:
There's a saying that essentially says that it's okay to talk to God, but when God talks back, you're probably crazy.


See, I'd disagree with that saying. God "talks" to me, but I am likely no crazier than you. He doesn't speak in words, true, but words are inefficient and unnecessary. Rather, He literally lives in me, guides me, both by encouragement and by conviction. It's not that my words and actions aren't my own or that I'm not in control at all times but rather that I've been given a compass that eternally and unfailingly points in the right direction. It tugs at me when I decide to head in a not-right direction. Sometimes I listen, sometimes I don't, and there are consequences either way. This is the Holy Spirit, the "piece" of the triune God that everyone seems to forget about and that people seem to understand the least but who, in my opinion, is the most important for believers in their daily lives. FAR more important than the Bible.

Quote:
If God can't actually directly talk to you, how do you feel his influence?


Why must communication be in words, in "talking?" As I said, communication is the entire function of the Holy Spirit; it is all the communication that I need while I'm still here on Earth. God is literally always with me, via the Spirit. It, as Scripture says, as written the Law on my heart. That's the compass, which is indeed His influence.

Quote:
How do you know that you're not simply doing these things out of your own nature?


Because I am often led to do things that are NOT in my nature at all. They only become part of my "nature" later. Like, as I said, deciding to do prison ministry. It was an entirely selfish decision at first. Given my history, I thought that rapists and child molesters deserved a slow and torturous death; lethal injection was far too good for them. But then I had a dear friend who was wrongly accused and eventually convicted of molesting his own child by his vengeful ex-wife. He ended up in jail. I knew that if I went into the jail with the ministry team, then I could see him and talk to him face-to-face, as I couldn't via the prison's closed-circuit TV visitation system. So I decided to join the team. My motivation was utterly selfish. I had absolutely NO intention of "doing good" for anyone other than what I could do by trying to cheer up my friend and myself.

But once I'd been there a few times, to make a long story short, I found my calling, as they say. Talking to, counseling, and in some cases befriending these (mostly) men that I otherwise would have condemned to a horrible death if I could have became part of my "nature." It NEVER would have been a decision that I would have made all by myself. So now, when I feel a need to do something that really isn't in my nature at all, whether it's a big thing or just a little thing, I know that's God pulling at me, guiding me to wherever I'm supposed to be or whatever I'm supposed to become. I'm not saying that EVERY change of heart that I have or that any other Christian has is a product of God's work, but I know for a fact that SOME changes most certainly are.

I'm mostly found on (and mostly upload to) Tumblr these days because, alas, there are only 24 hours in a day.
Muh Simblr! | An index of my downloads on Tumblr.
Instructor
#89 Old 21st Jul 2010 at 8:17 PM
Quote: Originally posted by iCad
Because I am often led to do things that are NOT in my nature at all. They only become part of my "nature" later. Like, as I said, deciding to do prison ministry. It was an entirely selfish decision at first. Given my history, I thought that rapists and child molesters deserved a slow and torturous death; lethal injection was far too good for them. But then I had a dear friend who was wrongly accused and eventually convicted of molesting his own child by his vengeful ex-wife. He ended up in jail. I knew that if I went into the jail with the ministry team, then I could see him and talk to him face-to-face, as I couldn't via the prison's closed-circuit TV visitation system. So I decided to join the team. My motivation was utterly selfish. I had absolutely NO intention of "doing good" for anyone other than what I could do by trying to cheer up my friend and myself.

But once I'd been there a few times, to make a long story short, I found my calling, as they say. Talking to, counseling, and in some cases befriending these (mostly) men that I otherwise would have condemned to a horrible death if I could have became part of my "nature." It NEVER would have been a decision that I would have made all by myself. So now, when I feel a need to do something that really isn't in my nature at all, whether it's a big thing or just a little thing, I know that's God pulling at me, guiding me to wherever I'm supposed to be or whatever I'm supposed to become. I'm not saying that EVERY change of heart that I have or that any other Christian has is a product of God's work, but I know for a fact that SOME changes most certainly are.


I have had somewhat "similar" experiences but I just didn't come to the same conclusion as you. My explanation is - things happen. Sometimes they don't happen exactly as we expected them to, sometimes we change in the process. Seems like a much more simple (and logical?) explanation than someone being guided by a divine force who has an ultimate plan.
Undead Molten Llama
#90 Old 21st Jul 2010 at 8:22 PM
Quote: Originally posted by jooxis
I have had somewhat "similar" experiences but I just didn't come to the same conclusion as you. My explanation is - things happen. Sometimes they don't happen exactly as we expected them to, sometimes we change in the process. Seems like a much more simple (and logical?) explanation than someone being guided by a divine force who has an ultimate plan.


Whatever works for you. Being in the place that I am, the "divine plan" explanation actually makes far more sense to me than the "random convergence of events" explanation does. I suppose it's a matter of the path your life has taken before the event in question. That will color your perceptions of things.

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Lab Assistant
#91 Old 22nd Jul 2010 at 8:26 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Vanito
You are telling me your version is 'the asnwer', while others claim their version is 'the answer' and not yours. I know the different fairytales from various christian sects, they all claim their version is true. Christianity has some issues with consistensy in the stories, thats what you get with no proof for any version. Your claim is equally likely as that of any other religious, and thats not very likely with all the religions this world has known.


This is not my version, it's Catholic.

Quote: Originally posted by jooxis
I'm not Orthodox because I'm not religious (neither are my parents)... so being baptised means you belong to a religion? That would be a strange way of looking at it. My friend was baptised when she was a baby, today she is the most outspoken atheist I know.


But, are you declarative Orthodox? My brother is also baptised and he is not religious and he don't believe in God, but he is declarative Catholic.
Well, when you get certificate of baptism after ritual, you can burn certificate, but ritual is always present.

Quote: Originally posted by Nekowolf
Anyway, accept, exactly? God's words, or Heaven? And just who should accept it, cause I really hope you don't mean everyone.


Who should accept it (God's words)? Christians.
I am sure that Heaven's gates are open to everyone.

Personaly, I think that Buddhist monk will enter Heaven rather than Catholic who is changing "bed partner" often.

Abandoned account...
Scholar
#92 Old 22nd Jul 2010 at 11:39 AM
I thought you are Catholic. Therefore, it is your version. Because you are Catholic.

Is that a shillelagh in your pocket, or are you just sinning against God?
Instructor
#93 Old 22nd Jul 2010 at 1:08 PM
Quote: Originally posted by ivan17
But, are you declarative Orthodox? My brother is also baptised and he is not religious and he don't believe in God, but he is declarative Catholic.
Well, when you get certificate of baptism after ritual, you can burn certificate, but ritual is always present.


I'm not sure what you mean by "declarative Orthodox" but I am sure I am not one. My parents are not religious and neither am I. I was never baptised nor do I go to Church, etc. so I am not a Christian "on paper" nor in my head. In fact I am more likely to be Catholic since my family is from Dalmatia. So we "celebrate" Catholic Easter and Christmas every year, but it's mostly about food and conversation, nothing deeply religious at all.

The only thing is that the majority religion in this country is Orthodox and people somehow expect you to be one. It is annoying because this country is supposed to be a secular country even though the religious authorities have too much power in my opinion. And they're jerks too.
Scholar
#94 Old 22nd Jul 2010 at 5:03 PM
Quote: Originally posted by jooxis
I was never baptised nor do I go to Church, etc. so I am not a Christian "on paper" nor in my head. In fact I am more likely to be Catholic since my family is from Dalmatia.


You can't be Catholic and not be a Christian as Catholicism is a subset of Christianity.

It goes:

Christianity

-Catholicism:

Roman Catholic · Anglican · Independent Catholic · Old Catholic
Protestant · Etc.

-Lutheranism

Calvinist · Anabaptist · Arminian · Baptist · Methodist · Adventist · Evangelical · Holiness · Pentecostal · Etc.

-Eastern Christianity

Eastern Orthodox · Oriental Orthodox (Miaphysite) · Assyrian · Etc.

-Nontrinitarian

Jehovah's Witness · Latter Day Saint · Unitarian · Christadelphian · Oneness Pentecostal · Iglesia ni Cristo · Etc.

Sarcasm is a body's natural defense against stupid.
Instructor
#95 Old 22nd Jul 2010 at 10:21 PM
Well, you misunderstood. I didn't say I was Catholic.

I was just replying to his assumption that since I am from Serbia I am most likely Orthodox - and I was just saying that even if I were religious, I wouldn't be Orthodox because my family is from the neighboring Catholic country. I am neither Catholic nor Orthodox nor anything, I do not follow any religion.
Scholar
#96 Old 22nd Jul 2010 at 10:58 PM Last edited by Vanito : 22nd Jul 2010 at 11:14 PM.
Quote: Originally posted by iCad
My thinking is that God wants us to believe ON FAITH, not because He wrote something down. Further, He wants believers to be the ones to spread faith in Him, not that people simply become convinced through "evidence" that He Himself left behind. For this reason, I do NOT accept the notion of the Bible being essentially written by God, but "only" by very wise-in-faith people who came to know Him well. For this reason, the devotion and reverence that many Christians show toward the Bible, usually at the expense of applying that devotion and reverence to God, disgusts me.

The god you describe supposedly would be willing for everyone anno 2010 to want to get to know him has very dubious methods of doing so:

You can get to know about him and jesus via: a bunch of christians of which the majority waves around with the bible, which is a rather dubious book in itself. Of which many do dubious things in the name of the christian religion ( all the christian hate speech and groups, the HIV pope, the sheeping, the political abuse with christianity, etc etc). Despite the rather crappy way the word is spread, this is gods way to show he LOVES people to get to know him.

Another method is via the book filled with cruelties itself, with all its contradictions. Selecting people out on those who can believe despite a cruel book is a GREAT method of encouraging people to come to him.

Unlogical, strange and dubious explanations which the followers have use to make this god seem ok, because he badly WANTS us to get to know him.

Then last but not least, he does his best to make it appear like he does NOT exist. No, we are supposed to have faith despite this.

By this very unlogical way, he wants you to depend on "faith" alone to go seel for him.

Sorry ICad, as much as I appreciate you trying to explain your version of faith, this claim of "god wants everyone to get to know him" does not make much sense.


"When the moon is in the seventh house
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars"
Lab Assistant
#97 Old 23rd Jul 2010 at 8:03 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Nekowolf
I thought you are Catholic. Therefore, it is your version. Because you are Catholic.


Yes, I am Catholic, but I didn't put this version into Catholic Church.
Maybe Saint Peter did.

Quote: Originally posted by jooxis
I'm not sure what you mean by "declarative Orthodox" but I am sure I am not one. My parents are not religious and neither am I. I was never baptised nor do I go to Church, etc. so I am not a Christian "on paper" nor in my head. In fact I am more likely to be Catholic since my family is from Dalmatia. So we "celebrate" Catholic Easter and Christmas every year, but it's mostly about food and conversation, nothing deeply religious at all.

The only thing is that the majority religion in this country is Orthodox and people somehow expect you to be one. It is annoying because this country is supposed to be a secular country even though the religious authorities have too much power in my opinion. And they're jerks too.


Well, if you during the census, e.g. say that you are Serb and Orthodox (even though you are not religious), you are then declarative Orthodox.

Interesting thing about "celebrating", to me it's already normal to hear that people are celebrating something without real meaning, but I think that it's great to respect own roots. There are also Orthodox communities in Dalmatia.

The best thing is when Muslims are celebrating Christmas.

Abandoned account...
Instructor
#98 Old 23rd Jul 2010 at 9:02 AM
Quote: Originally posted by ivan17
Well, if you during the census, e.g. say that you are Serb and Orthodox (even though you are not religious), you are then declarative Orthodox.


I have never participated in a census but I never say to anyone, ever, that I am Orthodox nor do I pretend to be

And yes, Christmas and Easter are becoming more "secular" for some people around here (and in the USA as well) and I enjoy those holidays even though I am an atheist. I like gathering with my family a few times a year and catching up on things.
world renowned whogivesafuckologist
retired moderator
#99 Old 23rd Jul 2010 at 9:22 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Drakesecaravdis
you're not a theist but you're not an atheist either. well gee that makes sense.


Hehe what I meant was - I don't subscribe to a particular recognized theology, but I also don't deny that there is something more than meets the eye, something huge and unfathomable. I guess "agnostic" would be an acceptable term, though that generally implies more of a spiritual shrug and "Hell if I know" - what I believe goes a bit deeper than that.

I was raised Christian - Baptist. My great-grandfather on my father's side was a Baptist preacher, with a bible wagon and everything (trailer with speakers that he would have pulled around and he'd preach on the move - seriously). And I was fully Christian for a lot of my youth - went to church, prayed, participated in youth ministry stuff... took me a while to realize it wasn't for me, and was a bunch of hypocritical, judgmental crap.
Scholar
#100 Old 23rd Jul 2010 at 12:01 PM
Quote: Originally posted by ivan17
Yes, I am Catholic, but I didn't put this version into Catholic Church. Maybe Saint Peter did.

Then what "version" of Catholicism are you then. And try to make some sense this time. I don't seem to recall ever mentioning you being the inventor of Roman Catholicism.

Is that a shillelagh in your pocket, or are you just sinning against God?
 
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