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View Full Version : Creators, your opinion please! Your ideal upload site?


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HystericalParoxysm
13th Oct 2013, 3:40 PM
Put aside everything that MTS is now, and ignore entirely the way we do things at the moment.

Now, imagine the ultimate site for sharing custom content you have made. How would it function? What features would it have? What would it feel like to use? Are there sites (not just for Sims, but for other games, or even just content sharing or uploading in general) that already do things in a way that you like? Are there features and aspects we currently have that you think would work better if we just changed them in a certain way? Or things we do now that you think are wrongity wrong and should be thrown out?

Tell us what you think - even if it's complaints - as long as you're reasonably courteous. If you are someone who makes custom content for TS2/TS3, we really want to hear from you! Small ideas, big ideas, and everything in between, we want to know your thoughts and feelings, so we can make MTS the best site it can be!

(And if you're a creator AND a downloader, please chime in on the other thread (http://www.modthesims.info/showthread.php?t=513708) too!)

Edit: Please click here (http://www.modthesims.info/showthread.php?p=4269023#post4269023) to view a list of the changes that we will be making to MTS very soon! You are, of course, still welcome to offer opinions and suggestions on those changes, or just in general. :)

Inge Jones
13th Oct 2013, 5:05 PM
Probably less judgemental moderation. More emphasis on content than presentation. By all means have scoring applied by moderators, but allow more through in the first place. Immediate non-moderated uploading for anyone who has previously scored a high scoring upload, which can be rescinded if their standards slip. Downloaders can if they wish use scoring system to filter downloads.

leefish
13th Oct 2013, 5:23 PM
Well, this is my wishlist for change:

- Let me upload any size picture I like. Resizing pics down to site sizes can be a bit of a pain.
- Trust me to upload something that is the best I can do, I try hard to make the best thing I can and sometimes can get a bit discouraged :( Basically, let good creators upload direct - no queue..
- Make the upload wizard a bit shorter - I remember being so baffled on my first uploads and IIRC the TS3 filter settings in the wizard are a bit wonky

What I like about here:

- Credit links. I can find the bit s I need easily
- Good pics that let me see all the item (hair with gaps from tumblr GRRRRRR)
- The search

HystericalParoxysm
13th Oct 2013, 5:23 PM
I think you will like some of the changes we have in the works, Inge. :)

squaretable
13th Oct 2013, 7:00 PM
I've attempted creating many times, and I've always felt it was far too exclusive. I mean, allow most content that SOMEONE may want in their game, I'be had a semi-decent house rejected, simply because the moderator didn't necessarily like my style. (That was in 2012) I also had my TV rename mod rejected since I couldn't describe how to make it from scratch. I feel we should have "Top Modder" status, and a system where only the worst creations don't get in. A meeting point between here and the exchange. I also feel to little support is given sometimes. Any low-level creator (first time to first 15) should have their creations go through the queue slowly, and have chats given by those experienced on how to improve.

Any upload of very good quality gets a stamp (like featured, but more general) :)

efolger997
13th Oct 2013, 7:10 PM
My wish list:
* I like Inge's idea that uploads don't need to be moderated if they were previously scored well
* The pictures sizes and limits are pretty restrictive. I always have to check to make sure it's at least 800x600 and often save it as a lesser quality because the file size is too big.
* I doubt this will happen, but I wish we could have pay/TSR content in uploads as long as it isn't included and give a link to TSR and paysites must be destroyed. I know a lot of hair retextures (like, 95% of them) can't be uploaded here for that reason, either.
* Less of a phobia of CC being included. I think it should be credited and everything but having 6 or 7 items qualifies as "a lot," (in the review thing) which to me is pretty restrictive (though that could just be because I LOVE CC and use it a lot, in building and otherwise)

I do like the 5-star upload system though. It helps me to see not only areas where I could improve but things I did right, too. Plus it seems quite a bit more objective than the previous way, and I like that. :)

Honeywell
13th Oct 2013, 7:12 PM
I like Mod The Sims. I upload here and I'm happy to have the vast majority of my uploads hosted here but I loath the moderation process. The time items are in the queue coupled with being graded makes uploading here a really unpleasant experience and every time I do I wonder to myself why I bother. It's especially annoying to see the number of views on my upload threads increase and know moderators are looking at it but no one, regardless of the reason, can be assed to approve it. What makes that even worse is when I compare it to uploading to my tumblr or leefish (which are instantaneous and no one but the downloaders are judging my uploads).

When I first uploaded here three or four years ago the queue was much faster and I was new and still unsure of myself enough that the process wasn't that bad but as time went on I started to feel insulted and pissed off by the moderation and I can absolutely understand why creators come to MTS to learn but eventually leave. Keep in mind that I like most of the MTS staff, have always been appreciative of their help and encouragement and am good friends with many and I still don't like the moderation process.

I would like creators in good standing to be able to submit their uploads without moderation. By all means moderate the site and step in and contact a creator or pull an upload if you need to but I don't see any reason why the moderation can't happen after something is uploaded. That way if there's some big debate going on about whether my upload is shit or not I won't be kept waiting while it's eventually decided it's good enough for MTS to host it.

As a downloader/browser I've pretty much stopped checking the uploads when that used to be something I enjoyed doing several times a day. I don't really know why but I suspect the 4 column layout, the lack of comments/views, and the new post format aren't as reader friendly as they can be and that contributes to it. I'm sure if I was actively looking for CC none of that would matter but I don't check daily anymore -- or even weekly -- which is a shame. It's probably just me who feels that way but I thought I would mention it.

Oh! And I almost forgot. The star system can use some tweaking so that more of the good or popular uploads get picked. I know you don't like to show favoritism to moderators but as it turns out they're some of your best creators. So when someone comes here and browses the "top" uploads they're really not seeing the best that's been uploaded.

And that's it. I think. Thanks for all of the time and effort spent updating the site and improving the moderation process -- it's appreciated. :)

Harishaima
13th Oct 2013, 7:18 PM
I like this site because it is almost never down and easy to find but the one thing I don't like is the search category and slowness.

NonaMena
13th Oct 2013, 7:30 PM
I don't think much of what I have to say is new but I'd like to share my thoughts anyhow. Most of my thoughts are relevant to mod uploads because that's what I do, but they will probably be helpful for other creators also. The biggest reason I stopped uploading mods to MTS was the queue. I think removing the queue for creators that have already uploaded 2 or 3 times is a great idea (or like Inge's suggestion).

Also, I think a good idea is a suggested upload template for new uploaders. The template shouldn't be something that uploaders are required to follow, but it might help immensely for new uploaders when it comes to remembering all the important things that should go in a mod post (like patch level requirements, conflict possibility, altered XMLs etc.). Maybe you could make a thread with a sample template and include the bb code for easy copy & paste, and then link it on the page where creators write their post. It would also really be helpful to have all those useful bb code buttons at the top of the main text area.

Inge Jones
13th Oct 2013, 7:31 PM
Harishaima I think you could have done with posting in the sister thread: http://bootstrap.modthesims.info/showthread.php?t=513708

nobody-at-all-6
13th Oct 2013, 7:46 PM
A more in-depth/universalized tagging system would be great so I wouldn't have to sift through a ton of uploads when I'm looking for something specific. Categories I'd be interested in are:
maxis-match vs. realistic
For clothes: tags specifying the length of sleeves/pants/skirts, color, fabric type (ie leather/wool).
For hair: Length, messy/neat, braids, etc.

Also, a way for all search results to show up on one page?

Nysha
13th Oct 2013, 7:56 PM
I think you also probably want the thread Inge linked to, nobody. :)

ZenGarden
13th Oct 2013, 8:18 PM
Even if I don't upload stuff I would highly appreciate filters (since the MTS don't really work for me?) that can sort out the EP's and SP's

missyhissy
13th Oct 2013, 8:33 PM
My main thought really is that the moderators for the uploads maybe could do with being a bit more open-minded. I got a career repeatedly rejected because it was spelt in the English way, instead of American-English. I'm English, and I was pretty fed up with uploading at this point and stopped for quite some time. I'm still not uploading careers here any more, for fear of being discriminated because I don't want to spell everything the American way when I'm English.
And I'm with leefish about picture sizes. I had a couple of mods sent back because the pictures weren't the right sizes and by the time I managed to get the right size, both mods got rejected because someone else had done the same mods and uploaded them.
I do like the new 5 star process though. It really does help show where I can improve and what I'm doing well :)

Volvenom
13th Oct 2013, 9:31 PM
I sometimes think mts is very traditional and not very into modern architecture. The rule about boxy can be silly when much of the architecture today play with that boxyness, trying to make it good as well.

As a general rule I only upload houses to mts if I think they will pass the, at times as Inge suggested, judgemental moderation without any hickups. When I'm finished with my world I will have to start uploading houses again, and mts will be ditched if I think it's going to be to much back and forth. Frankly I'm not really very interested in being told to change things anymore, because as someone else mentioned in this thread, when I was new to uploading houses the feedback and moderation was useful to me. These days I don't think I need it anymore. When I post in the feedback forum, no one knows what to say. It's just an almost painful silence. On the other hand it wouldn't surprice me if i placed a window the wrong way or forgot a fridge, mistakes happens.

As missyhissy says the English spelling check is a bit silly when the person in the other end probably can't spell right themselves. Frankly spelling English can sometimes be science in it's own right, since so many countries have their own spelling rules. I'm not english though, so my spelling probably isn't perfect.

I would also like to be able to upload houses with payitems in them, but I have no illusions about that. You moderations would probably find yourself in the receiving end of tons of rubbish if you did.

Grimat
13th Oct 2013, 9:42 PM
MTS is not far off my ideal site. The only couple of things I would change are.
1- Allow uploading in a sims3package format
2- When moderators review your upload, and there is something very simple such as add a thumbnail, the it would make more sense for the moderator to make this minor change to save time.

AlfredAskew
13th Oct 2013, 9:46 PM
(Just fyi, when I state don't wants, I'm just using it as a way to clarify. I re-read this and realized it sounded like a scathing review of MTS, when I was actually thinking about upload sites in general, not just for the sims. So just... you know, no offence meant. :) )

Above everything else: I want a site that allows me to lay out nice large, detailed previews and descriptions of my upload at full standard screen width (around 800/1k pixels). I have a huge screen. If I had a place to upload that would allow me to take advantage of the size of picture I can take, I'd use it. (Note: I don't need hosting. I can do that myself. :) ) I hate when I have to scale down previews, and making a good presentation can be a huge incentive to upload for me.

I've been creating for years, and I want a site that will more or less stay out of my way when it comes to uploading. If I feel like someone's about to swoop in and judge my upload, before the actual audience of the content gets to it, I pretty much just won't do it.
I don't have a problem following rules, and I like the idea of putting my content in an organized database. I want to feel like I'm helping build the site by doing a good job, and making a nice upload. I don't want to feel like I'm filling out a form for some job. I'll follow guidelines, but I'll do it because I want to be a good person, not because a mod told me. Putting a supervisor over my shoulder makes my play seem like work. Work that I'm not getting paid for. Put that responsibility on me, and I'll be a lot happier person.
I need a site to trust me as an active member of the community.

I don't care about numbers on uploads anymore. It's all about making a collection of cool stuff with a collection of cool people. I don't want my creation site to feel like it's about number embiggening. I want a community where the emphasis is on what's been uploaded, not what's been downloaded. I'm not saying get rid of download counts. I know people get a kick out of that. It's just... upload sites sometimes feel like they look to gaming sites as an example. The important part of a creating community should be the discussion between creators and their downloaders, that's the help forums, the comments, even the off-site discussion. Sharing techniques, information and ideas should be the priority on a site that I would upload to.
In particular, if I were site-shopping, I'd see this reflected in site layout. Priority on should be downloads, discussion, tutorials and help, pretty much in that order.

On a different note, very specifically, I need a site accepts that makeup and recolors looks the same in bodyshop as they do in game.That whole song and dance--where the sim has to go to the mirror, and makes a stupid face, and then wanders away and has to be repositioned, and then the camera has to be repositioned and then, finally, I take the next preview--it's a huge waste of my time when I have a perfectly functional preview tool at my disposal.
Similarly, I have 8 gigs of cc in my game. I love my game, and I've worked hard to make it look the way I want it to look. I won't change my game for the sake of preview guidelines. If I'm not taking pictures of my game, it's not fun. I won't dig through 8 gigs to credit everything in a picture, and I don't even remember which pieces of content came from paysites. I can't post on a site that restricts the way I take previews.

Gazelove
13th Oct 2013, 10:09 PM
I agree with most of what has been said here, but I still think quality control needs to be worked on. For content previews, I think a swatch should always be included, and only a minimal amount of photoshopping allowed, as some people like to apply filters and other useless crap that makes it hard to see what the content actually looks like.

For someone's first upload, depending on the type, they should be required to look at a short, basic tutorial on making previews. Too many people upload great content with crunchy/blurry previews. Along with that, I think it'd just be nice to see more simplified tutorials on making CC that actually works. Again, there is a lot of broken content on this site. I've been tempted to go through and make little packs of fixed CC with credit to the original creators (of course) but I feel like I'd be kind of a jerk for it - even if some of those people haven't returned to MTS in a while.

mashelle
13th Oct 2013, 10:10 PM
I have only been uploading for a couple of months, but I actually really like the upload process. I like that everything is checked prior to uploading, though as some noted above, I think it would also be just as good if you allowed the uploads instantly and then checked them and had them removed at a later date if they weren't up to par. Perhaps have an icon showing whether they have been approved by a moderator yet. I don't download a lot of stuff, though I have downloaded poses in the past and it is reassuring to know that they have been reviewed and have to meet specific guidelines before I can download them.

I have had my pose packs rejected and I can see how it becomes discouraging, but I think that it is needed to maintain the quality of downloads on the site. The only thing I do not like about the uploading process is the amount of time it takes to get posted after I upload.

I like the idea that others posted of allowing creators that have uploaded previously to be allowed to upload without having to go through the approval process. I would say I am still a bit new to allow me to do that, but since I have downloaded a few pose packs without issue I feel like after a few more uploads I would think I get the idea and know what I am doing. However, if I wanted to upload something else like a house or a sim, which I have never uploaded, I think that would need to go through the approval process again as I do not have experience uploading those. But as for uploading pose packs, it is pretty much doing the same thing over and over again so I pretty much know what I am doing with that.

So I guess that is my opinion on the uploading process. But, overall, I like the way it all works aside from the wait :P But my opinion is strictly in regards to pose pack uploads I have never uploaded other types of things so I really can't say much about uploading other stuff :D

Mikexx2
13th Oct 2013, 10:15 PM
Swatches for hair retextures/basic clothing recolours should be allowed instead of a picture in-game of every single item (with a couple of preview pictures, of course). :)

Inge Jones
13th Oct 2013, 10:32 PM
Mashelle I think that sounds like what I was getting at. Let the uploads go through (either for everyone or just for people who already had a previous one approved), then the moderator give them some stamp of approval when they can get round to it. Users can if they prefer ask not to see unapproved uploads in their search. And of course really terrible stuff can be removed by the moderator if necessary. When you make something you're excited to share, having to wait up to two weeks and risk someone on another site publishing a similar thing first is unbearable :)

joandsarah77
13th Oct 2013, 10:53 PM
What I like:
>As a lot builder I appreciate that the wizard knows what MTS content was used in a lot. That is very handy.

What I don't like: (and sorry this list is so much longer)
>I don't like the wait. 5 days on average for a cc free or cc low lot using MTS content just does not seem right for someone who regularly uploads similar things. I waited 4 days on my previous lot and am again up to 4 days on a lot I have in the queue.
>I am not liking the somewhat conflicting opinion on screenshot position and star rating. The guidelines state the edges of the lot need to be shown but screenshots get scored as too far away if you actually follow that guideline. Anytime I go back a bit to show off a nice bit of garden on the side with my front screenshot I will get my screenshot given 3 stars. If I zoom in I will get a 5 even though that is conflicting with the guidelines.The guidelines need the wording changed to what the moderation queue actually wants.
>I hate seeing Sims 3 pictures and advise given in the Sims 2 build section guidelines. It kind of makes me think they really want us to upload TS3 lots. This gets my goat more then any other thing. Please someone change this.
>Again on the star rating. I notice if I stuff my lot full of plants I can get 5 stars but if I decrees the planting to something I think will be manageable by the uploader I get 3 stars.
Also how is a very light planting of 2 trees and a flower strip which I know was light get the same number of stars as a garden with trees, rose bushes a pond and a cfe gazebo?

Changes I'd like to see:
> I would like an area added to the wizard that we tick to say if we are a featured, picked, regular creator or new creator. With some kind of system in place that speeds up the process depending on your 'ranking' Not that I really like ranking people, but if you are a featured or picked creator there should be someway of making the process faster.

> It would be nice not to have to edit my photo type and do an advanced sizing edit on every picture.

>How about having a built in spell check to the wizard? But with a filter for UK/Australian spelling and American spelling. I don't want my 'u's gone from out of colour.

>I would like to see more options on picture uploads. Rather then just game pictures or own artwork.

>I would really like something done about the thanks system to make it a bit more obvious. 10% or less of thanks is rather disheartening.

PlyPlay665
13th Oct 2013, 11:11 PM
Immediate non-moderated uploading for anyone who has previously scored a high scoring upload, which can be rescinded if their standards slip. Downloaders can if they wish use scoring system to filter downloads.
I like this idea a lot! I don't think that we should open it up to everyone, because MTS is a high traffic website. I could see spam happening if the wall was put down. (Viruses!) I also could see moderators feeling bad to take things down rather than denying it beforehand. At least in my opinion, it would feel worse to take down a download after it's been uploaded, rather than turning one down that has only been placed for review and telling the uploader what was wrong with it. Maybe that's just me.

Legislacerator
13th Oct 2013, 11:21 PM
Perhaps the "skip the queue" idea could be applied to categories the uploader has already posted to, therefore proved they have experience with? For example, someone with a few clothing creations under their belt could post new clothing uploads without having to deal with the queue, but if they were uploading, say, a hair, they would have to go through moderation.

I would also like to second Mikexx2 on not having to take an in game photo of every color in a set. I have quite a few TS2 things that I would have liked to upload here, but the requirement of needing an in-game photo of all 25 colors made me decide it wasn't worth the effort. For something like hair or clothing recolors, I think that a swatch of Bodyshop screenshots of all colors, along with the normal screenshots, should be fine. Perhaps make usage of the Bodyshop lighting mods here on MTS a requirement, if the default poor lighting would be a concern.

munds
13th Oct 2013, 11:58 PM
I hope it's okay I make this quick post here - and not in the sister thread - even though I'm not a creator. I just have to quote Honeywell on one thing.
As a downloader/browser I've pretty much stopped checking the uploads when that used to be something I enjoyed doing several times a day. I don't really know why but I suspect the 4 column layout, the lack of comments/views, and the new post format aren't as reader friendly as they can be and that contributes to it. I'm sure if I was actively looking for CC none of that would matter but I don't check daily anymore -- or even weekly -- which is a shame. It's probably just me who feels that way but I thought I would mention it.
I actually didn't realise until reading the feedback above that I too have slowly begun to visit the Downloads section less and less after the layout overhaul. I like love the new layout a lot more than the old one, even the Downloads section, but something that could be considered a minor change - the comments/views now being hidden behind the "More Info" button - has really changed my browsing habits. In the past I did daily visits (it's probably my most frequently clicked bookmark, not joking) to check out if there's any interesting new content. I could very quickly scroll through the most recent page, and if I saw any uploads with a noticeable amount of comments/views in a short amount of time, I naturally wanted to know what it was all about. It was quick and easy, and it didn't require me to make the to-open-or-not-to-open decision just based on the thumbnail and title alone. I understand this could be considered hardcore lazypantsiness - you know, clicking on the "More Info" button can't take that much of time - but as the Downloads section consists of 60 uploads, it really starts to take a significant amount of time.

As an example, let's say there's a new page of uploads and my eyes wander over a pair of pants. Normal looking pants. As my sims have more than enough pants already, I won't click it. BUT WAIT. I notice a surprisingly high amount of comments, and my coffee fueled brain makes a sudden halt. Ordinary, day-to-day, seen-it-all-before pants have this many views, why? I can't but wonder and against my earlier judgement I check it out. I find ground-breaking meshing and the nicest pant texturing I've ever seen. I cry a few tears of joy and then curse myself for almost missing out on these revolutionary pants of heaven.

Example is hypothetical. But in any case, in the past I would never have missed out on the pants, while nowadays I feel I miss out on pants all the time. I'm hoping you'd perhaps take this suggestion into reconsideration. Of course, in the end it's only you who run the site who see the whole picture, so I know you'll do as you see best. My appreciations and thanks!

whoden
14th Oct 2013, 12:21 AM
I definitely agree with the others who suggested less-stringent upload guidelines and the whole "uploaders-in-good-standing don't have to go through the moderation queue" thing. I've had some lots that I spent a lot of time on building, uploading, making suggested changes, uploading again and having them be rejected for some VERY nitpicky reasons.

M.M.A.A.
14th Oct 2013, 12:30 AM
Well, I'd like an increase in the limit of file sizes from 10 MB to something bigger, especially since people now seem to upload inhibited neighborhoods (especially those that require EP's (not just the BG)).

Also, I noticed that when you write feedback for a creator, it might be hard for them to know that you asked a question, so, is it possible for them to get a notification that someone gave feedback, specifically for those who use the feedback button, they don't need to receive a notification if some just wanted to thank them.

buggybooz
14th Oct 2013, 7:04 AM
less judgemental moderation. More emphasis on content than presentation.
Trust me to upload something that is the best I can do........Basically, let good creators upload direct - no queue.
..... I started to feel insulted and pissed off by the moderation and I can absolutely understand why creators come to MTS to learn but eventually leave.

I've been creating for years, and I want a site that will more or less stay out of my way when it comes to uploading. .....
I need a site to trust me as an active member of the community.


All of the above could be my words. When I started creating in 2007 there was no moderation for my category of cc but once it did occur it was fairly speedy and I did not have problems with it. The last few years something happened to the moderation process (constant changes required and nit picking about things that had nothing to do with the actual content) where one says it is just not worth going through all these hoops. I am like AlfredAskew as in I don"t care about download numbers anymore. I am my own worst critic so trust me to want to upload something that is up to snuff.

If you want people to start uploading to MTS again you have to have a bit of good will towards them and stop with stringent policies that aren't helping quality control but rather hindering alot of quality content ever making it onto the site. Roll back the clock a few years and see what made MTS great.

Annabel Lee
14th Oct 2013, 7:34 AM
I think it would be great if lots could have a no CC/CC filter. Then we'd finally stop seeing lots titled "Your New Home - no CC"
But that's the only way to let browsing people know a lot has no CC. ;)

Also, if it could be implemented, a download updater thingy would be nifty.
Example: Create an "update notification" button that creators can add to their download if they want. Site users who click on a download's "update notification" button would be notified anytime that download is updated.
The notification could appear on anyone's My Downloads page, sent via PM, whatever you decide.
I'm thinking this would be mostly for mods and such that need updated with patches, but it could apply to any download that may need updated/fixed for whatever reason.

HystericalParoxysm
14th Oct 2013, 7:38 AM
Thank you all for your input and suggestions. We really do appreciate it - keep 'em coming!

Sounds like, for the most part, people are in agreement over some major points, which is... really excellent, as we have a couple of pretty big changes in the works that we'll be doing an official announcement for pretty soon, very much along the lines of the suggestions here. Very nice to see that, despite the first post specifically not mentioning any current plans, you guys have come up with basically the same idea on your own, and that creators seem pretty across-the-board agreed on some of those big points. :)

Yes, I'm being intentionally cryptic as I don't want to say too much just yet, till we're closer to rolling it out... but you creative type peoples have more than a few brain cells to rub together, so I'm sure you can figure it out. ;)

Niketas
14th Oct 2013, 7:44 AM
Okay. Once I recoloured the painting easel from Sims 2. It was declined because of the bad quality pictures. I had a really rubbish computer. So maybe make exceptions for people with low-end computers. Also, the picture requirements for things, such as houses, one directly from the front, one directly from the back, are really hard to get perfect. So maybe be a bit more lenient, so long as you have good views of all angles of the house, inside and outside, it'd be better. I have built a house and didn't upload it here because I couldn't get the photos right. Taking the pictures is more of an art form than actually building the houses. It put me off even bothering to try, knowing it'd be rejected for my pictures being at angles.

joandsarah77
14th Oct 2013, 8:02 AM
That sounds exciting HP. :D

missroxor
14th Oct 2013, 8:11 AM
Perhaps a quick thanks button for each upload on the download overview page would be useful and remind people to thank? Maybe it only shows if you've downloaded that item? Or maybe it shows on all DLs but is red (for example) if you've downloaded but not thanked an item. I posted this in the downloader’s thread too since I wish for this as a downloader to remind me to do it and as a creator to remind others to do it to me :p

I'd like to see some sort of Top Ten/Twenty Most Downloaded Items, either as a whole or within individual categories. I like seeing what other people are downloading, and it would be a good way of getting to see stuff you might not otherwise think of looking for. For example, I mostly DL houses, and rarely anything else - seeing that a lot of people liked a certain dress, or modification or whatever, would encourage me to go check it out.

That was from a downloader's PoV and taken from the downloader's thread but from a creator's PoV, I think it would be kinda cool to have a 'download of the month' or maybe a monthly top ten chart or something. Based purely on Downloads of course and nothing to do with the moderators. Heck, maybe even award a small “creator of the year” type prize for the person with the most downloads each year. Of course, I don’t have a hope in hell of competing for that but would still enjoy seeing others win and could at least make a feeble attempt at making the top 10 for a month :p I just think it would be a fun way to inject a bit of excitement into the creation/upload process :D

ETA: *creator of the year prize or a little badge under their name like the mocha/latte awards.

Inge Jones
14th Oct 2013, 8:27 AM
Just to support the comments about too much emphasis being put on judging the screenshots, it shouldn't be forgotten that it is very simple for a player to try something out in their game and then delete it if it disappoints them. It's not as if people are paying money up front and there is no-refunds policy. So really the images attached to the upload post don't *need* to be quite as amazing as some moderators have insisted on.

Klaartje
14th Oct 2013, 8:29 AM
First of all: you guys are awesome. After the whole bootstrap episode, I didn't think you'd be asking feedback antime soon, yet here you guys are again, trying to make this site better yet again. Also, I really appreciate the fact that you keep such a close eye on this thread.
I think the most important points have been covered by those posting before me, but I'd like to add my two cents aa a new creator :) What I aim for as a creator is very much related to what I want as a downloader, so apologies if this overlaps.
What I like about MTS, is the fact that it is moderated quite strictly. As a downloader, I know what I am getting, and therefore as a creator I don't mind the hassle because I know it serves the purpose of the downloader. Also, I feel a little proud everytime my upload gets approved, because then I know it's good enough. Uploading to the exchange wouldn't give me the same satisfaction. However, I can totally understand that after a few decent uploads, people get tired of the moderation process, especially when the comments come across as nitpicking. The point I'm trying to make is that a happy medium should be found. Who is going to decide when a creator is good enough and/or when his standards are dropping? Even when creators are their own moderators, I'd still expect to see clear pictures and detailed descriptions. Sure, moderation afterwards is possible, but how will you make sure that a creator actually will be making the changes required? I'm not saying that all creators are evil and this plan is wrong, but I'm just raising some questions I'd like to see answered before this system rolls into place. One suggestion I'd like to make is to send the direct uploaders the sheet/checklist you use to moderate, so they can use that as a reference for checking their upload. If this sytem would help to get awesome creators back, its totally worth the effort. i would love to learn some new stuff, have their creations as examples and be able to pick their brains.
Which brings me to my second point: there is so much knowledge available at MTS, yet it can be quite difficult to find what you are looking for. Many tutroials are old or outdated, and CFF is most useful when you have created something already that you wish to improve. In an ideal world, where moderators and site helpers would be paid for their tremendous efforts and are bored and looking for something to do, the wiki and tutorial section would be updated and better organised. Beginning creators, like me, would then know where and how to start, ask less silly questions, meaning that experienced creators are more likely to want to help because they know that the other person has at least been able to try and understand the basics.

Inge Jones
14th Oct 2013, 8:49 AM
It's possibly a personality thing. Some people enjoy the feeling of approval by people in authority, and that's fine. My idea for receiving the "accredited" stamp after uploading when the moderator has time to check it may satisfy that. But a heck of a lot of the most innovative and talented people are quite the opposite, and get irritated by too much overt authority, and they may be the people who have stopped uploading here. Hopefully MTS management will be able to find a compromise that suits both ends of the spectrum.

joandsarah77
14th Oct 2013, 8:55 AM
Who is going to decide when a creator is good enough and/or when his standards are dropping?

Surely if a creator has a featured or picked upload in an area that is enough to say they are good enough in that area to bypass a long moderation queue.
My idea was it was box you could tick on the upload wizard to say if you have a featured or picked upload in that area you are uploading to. That way if you are picked for your clothing you can get through any new clothing items through quickly but don't get through without moderation when you decide to try make-up. I have no idea how hard something like that would be to make and it would have to have some kind of self checking system to prevent cheating or just making a mistake.

I like the idea of some kind of self moderation form.

It's possibly a personality thing. Some people enjoy the feeling of approval by people in authority, and that's fine. My idea for receiving the "accredited" stamp after uploading when the moderator has time to check it may satisfy that. But a heck of a lot of the most innovative and talented people are quite the opposite, and get irritated by too much overt authority, and they may be the people who have stopped uploading here. Hopefully MTS management will be able to find a compromise that suits both ends of the spectrum.

Yes, I'm not really happy being told my effort on a particular upload was a 3 this time and a 4 that time. They really don't know how much effort I put in and looks can be deceiving. Also what might be easy for one person might have taken another person much more effort so you can't judge someone else's effort by your own talents.

Klaartje
14th Oct 2013, 9:02 AM
It's possibly a personality thing. [...] Hopefully MTS management will be able to find a compromise that suits both ends of the spectrum.
It might be a personality thing, it might have to do with a difference in experience, maybe my opinion is different after ten more lots! I like your idea of the approval stamp, but I would still argue that the uploads that don't get this stamp should be removed in due time. Don't get me wrong, I like this idea of the system overhaul, I'm just hesitant because I'm a fan of MTS's high standards. I agree partly that there is too much focus on presentation, but the photoshopped images of other CC-sites have made me so disappointed everytime I checked their stuff in my game, that I don't go there anymore. Which is why I wanted to have a discussion about the details of the compromise as well, to add to the question why there should be direct uploading :)

Tashiketh
14th Oct 2013, 10:16 AM
I hope it's okay I make this quick post here - and not in the sister thread - even though I'm not a creator. I just have to quote Honeywell on one thing.

I actually didn't realise until reading the feedback above that I too have slowly begun to visit the Downloads section less and less after the layout overhaul. I like love the new layout a lot more than the old one, even the Downloads section, but something that could be considered a minor change - the comments/views now being hidden behind the "More Info" button - has really changed my browsing habits. In the past I did daily visits (it's probably my most frequently clicked bookmark, not joking) to check out if there's any interesting new content. I could very quickly scroll through the most recent page, and if I saw any uploads with a noticeable amount of comments/views in a short amount of time, I naturally wanted to know what it was all about. It was quick and easy, and it didn't require me to make the to-open-or-not-to-open decision just based on the thumbnail and title alone. I understand this could be considered hardcore lazypantsiness - you know, clicking on the "More Info" button can't take that much of time - but as the Downloads section consists of 60 uploads, it really starts to take a significant amount of time.

As an example, let's say there's a new page of uploads and my eyes wander over a pair of pants. Normal looking pants. As my sims have more than enough pants already, I won't click it. BUT WAIT. I notice a surprisingly high amount of comments, and my coffee fueled brain makes a sudden halt. Ordinary, day-to-day, seen-it-all-before pants have this many views, why? I can't but wonder and against my earlier judgement I check it out. I find ground-breaking meshing and the nicest pant texturing I've ever seen. I cry a few tears of joy and then curse myself for almost missing out on these revolutionary pants of heaven.

Example is hypothetical. But in any case, in the past I would never have missed out on the pants, while nowadays I feel I miss out on pants all the time. I'm hoping you'd perhaps take this suggestion into reconsideration. Of course, in the end it's only you who run the site who see the whole picture, so I know you'll do as you see best. My appreciations and thanks!

I know this doesn't help now, but revamping the download browser completely is pretty high on my list of "Things to do" for MTS. The current one hasn't changed much in functionality for about 7 years (when I first wrote it), and especially for things like filters, multiple games, and just generally browsing things it's not... optimal.

So, even with the new theme revamp and the download blocks, I'll probably be rewriting the whole damn thing at some point soonishly. Which is going to need about 4 buckets of coffee and a locked room for a week because man that code is awful (and just about the most complicated thing on the site).

Nouk
14th Oct 2013, 10:28 AM
Swatches for hair retextures/basic clothing recolours should be allowed instead of a picture in-game of every single item (with a couple of preview pictures, of course). :)

Yes, please. The shape of the mesh and placement of highlights doesn't change between different colors anyway, and taking separate pictures of each color always took me a lot of time.

Nysha
14th Oct 2013, 10:32 AM
I would also like to be able to upload houses with payitems in them, but I have no illusions about that. You moderations would probably find yourself in the receiving end of tons of rubbish if you did. It's not really about quality - there's as much good pay stuff as good free stuff, as much bad free stuff as bad pay stuff etc. It's more about principles :p . MTS is a 100% free site, so downloaders always need to be able to get what they see in the pics completely for free. We also respect creators' policies, so if a creator says that something can't be included (which all pay creators do), we respect that. So we end up a bit stuck - we can't have pay stuff required because it's pay, and we can't have pay stuff included because that'd be shitty towards the creators. We have been discussing middle roads on this recently, but I'd be interested to hear other people's suggestions too.

2- When moderators review your upload, and there is something very simple such as add a thumbnail, the it would make more sense for the moderator to make this minor change to save time. This is an interesting one! I'm always a bit unsure about doing this kind of thing, because while I want to get uploads approved as fast as possible, I'm always wary of stepping on creators' toes. How would other creators feel about mods editing their uploads in this way?

Swatches for hair retextures/basic clothing recolours should be allowed instead of a picture in-game of every single item (with a couple of preview pictures, of course). :)This is already the case.

>I hate seeing Sims 3 pictures and advise given in the Sims 2 build section guidelines. It kind of makes me think they really want us to upload TS3 lots. This gets my goat more then any other thing. Please someone change this.We use templates for the guidelines, so that there's less risk of them getting out of step - it means that if we increase the max pic size to 2500x1800, we just change one template which shows up on all the guidelines pages. That avoid the situations that used to occur very frequently, where we'd change a rule but forget to upload one or two guidelines pages, so creators would end up getting the wrong info. It's certainly not meant to encourage anyone to switch to TS3 - I'm a TS2 person through and through :p - it's just a practical thing; and the TS3 guidelines pages also have TS2-specific advice on them.

>Again on the star rating. I notice if I stuff my lot full of plants I can get 5 stars but if I decrees the planting to something I think will be manageable by the uploader I get 3 stars.
Also how is a very light planting of 2 trees and a flower strip which I know was light get the same number of stars as a garden with trees, rose bushes a pond and a cfe gazebo? These kinds of issues are always tricky. Especially with lots and sims, it can be very difficult to say, objectively, 'this is good' or 'this is bad'. We aim to err on the side of approving stuff, but as you say, it can still lead to odd ratings even when those ratings are 3+ and thus approvable. Hmm.

>How about having a built in spell check to the wizard? But with a filter for UK/Australian spelling and American spelling. I don't want my 'u's gone from out of colour. I'd probably say that spellcheck plugins for browsers are so common nowadays that there's not much point in us duplicating the functionality.

Perhaps the "skip the queue" idea could be applied to categories the uploader has already posted to, therefore proved they have experience with? For example, someone with a few clothing creations under their belt could post new clothing uploads without having to deal with the queue, but if they were uploading, say, a hair, they would have to go through moderation.I like this. I'd also like to know which bits the four people who pressed disagree disagreed with :p .

Also, I noticed that when you write feedback for a creator, it might be hard for them to know that you asked a question, so, is it possible for them to get a notification that someone gave feedback, specifically for those who use the feedback button, they don't need to receive a notification if some just wanted to thank them. We do have the My Feedback page, under User Options. The problems with notifications is that we don't have a notifications system :p . Email notifications used to pants the servers, so we turned them off; we still have a protozoal on-site notifications system floating around somewhere, but it was never finished.

I think it would be great if lots could have a no CC/CC filter.They do. :)

The notification could appear on anyone's My Downloads pageMy Downloads currently marks any uploads on the list which have been updated since the downloader last downloaded files from them. Would you prefer that to be scrapped and for My Downloads to only mark those downloads which the downloader has specifically signed up for updates from?

I'll look at the rest of the posts soon, have to head out now . :)

Nouk
14th Oct 2013, 10:36 AM
I definitely agree with the others who suggested less-stringent upload guidelines and the whole "uploaders-in-good-standing don't have to go through the moderation queue" thing. I've had some lots that I spent a lot of time on building, uploading, making suggested changes, uploading again and having them be rejected for some VERY nitpicky reasons.

Thing is, I would have happily uploaded a 5500+ faces short hair for The Sims 2 to this site and wouldn't have thought anything of it were it not for someone pointing out 'LOL ARE YOU SERIOUS!?'. Even after creating 30(?) hairs, still doesn't mean I don't need moderation and things pointed out to me sometimes. I personally need the help. I'm not a great creator, but still have high downloads (as it's hair, hair is freaking popular either way) and it would suck if thousands of people ended up with a mistake and would have to re download because it was auto-approved.

Maybe there can be an opt-out for those who got featured an x amount of time. Like "You don't need the hand-holding and peer-review will be enough, but if you want, we will still look at your stuff. Please tick the box if you want this download reviewed by mods."

Nysha
14th Oct 2013, 10:44 AM
You know we'd have deleted the fuck out of it, though, hon. :D

Nouk
14th Oct 2013, 10:46 AM
You know we'd have deleted the fuck out of it, though, hon. :D

YOU would. "HAHA IT'S NOUK LET'S HAVE SOME FUN!" :D

HystericalParoxysm
14th Oct 2013, 10:52 AM
Nouk - Even with the totally-hypothetical-no-really-auto-approve-for-good-creators system, moderators and users can still point out things that could be done better by commenting, and uploads can be revised... It moves the feedback you get from moderation to a more general thing, but poly counts are required -anyway- so it's not like someone couldn't look at it and go "5500 polys, that seems high" and then either not download or post a comment asking what the crazy dutch hair-making lady has been smoking that makes her think that count is okay. ;)

Volvenom
14th Oct 2013, 11:04 AM
It's not really about quality - there's as much good pay stuff as good free stuff, as much bad free stuff as bad pay stuff etc. It's more about principles :p . MTS is a 100% free site, so downloaders always need to be able to get what they see in the pics completely for free. We also respect creators' policies, so if a creator says that something can't be included (which all pay creators do), we respect that. So we end up a bit stuck - we can't have pay stuff required because it's pay, and we can't have pay stuff included because that'd be shitty towards the creators. We have been discussing middle roads on this recently, but I'd be interested to hear other people's suggestions too.

You probably got me wrong. I was looking for a word had to do with yelling, arguements, complaints and ended up with rubbish. A spellcheck may be nice to have :p . I can't really come up with a middle road on this though. I know there do excist good creators with free items, it's just scattered all over, and much more job to find. Finding a good creator involves work. They all have their things, good and bad, and what can I live with?

Sinead19
14th Oct 2013, 11:15 AM
Like everyone else, most of my thoughts have been said. I started uploading my lots on my tumblr because I found that I was very discouraged by what some moderators said about my lots. Yes they are so many house styles out there, but some of us stick to the same style, that's what we like to build and we can expand on that. But when we're told that our lot looks like everyone else's, it's like a slap in the face. I don't approve of the star rating at all. I agree it should be used to pick "picked" and "featured" lots, but sometimes you stop and wonder why you got 2 stars for your texture/terrain paintings or your gardens when you've done nothing wrong. The size of pictures I think also needs to be worked on. I like to be able to upload clear pictures of what my lots look like, not blurred pictures, which I can now easily do on my tumblr. The only thing I do it change the balance of light on my pictures but when uploading to MTS with the file size limit my pictures end up so blurry they look like horrible representations of my lots, etc. Also perhaps allow downloads to be uploaded in package format. I barely use CC in my lots anymore, but every time I do, in goes a credit link. I also like the feedback/commenting system. Other than that, and maybe a need for a better filter system in the downloads menu, this site is alright. I just prefer my tumblr because of the freedom I have of uploading a lot and whatever pictures I choose to put with it when I want to :).

Volvenom
14th Oct 2013, 11:17 AM
Maybe there can be an opt-out for those who got featured an x amount of time. Like "You don't need the hand-holding and peer-review will be enough, but if you want, we will still look at your stuff. Please tick the box if you want this download reviewed by mods."

You know sometimes you just need the confidence to do that yourself. I know for me it would be an additional selfcheck, and I would be a bit apprehensive about it, but that's good in my opinion. It shows you take it seriously, and that you should.

JunJayMdM
14th Oct 2013, 11:22 AM
Probably less judgemental moderation. More emphasis on content than presentation. By all means have scoring applied by moderators, but allow more through in the first place. Immediate non-moderated uploading for anyone who has previously scored a high scoring upload, which can be rescinded if their standards slip. Downloaders can if they wish use scoring system to filter downloads.

That and one thing that I'd like would be having the post split. I'll try to explain it the best I can but basically instead of having to write the post in one box, more boxes, each one representing a section (i.e. Requirements, Description, Specifics, etc...). This would save time having to make your own layout and make it simpler for those who have a hard time figuring out what to write (*cough cough* me *cough*)

A Changelog section would be nice too, without having to change the post to include them.

Last, a marker that describes what changed, something like what Twallan has on NRaas (i.e. Coding update, Translation update, ...) keeping a custom one where you write why you updated it (as it is now).

What I'm describing is something along the line of elements that you add to the post and customize them to your needs :)

EDIT : I've just noticed Nonamena suggested something similar too, so yeah, that too :up:

Inge Jones
14th Oct 2013, 11:25 AM
Nouk - Even with the totally-hypothetical-no-really-auto-approve-for-good-creators system, moderators and users can still point out things that could be done better by commenting, and uploads can be revised... It moves the feedback you get from moderation to a more general thing, but poly counts are required -anyway- so it's not like someone couldn't look at it and go "5500 polys, that seems high" and then either not download or post a comment asking what the crazy dutch hair-making lady has been smoking that makes her think that count is okay. ;)

Exactly. It's not like downloaders need to have their decisions made by moderators in all respects. Sites can always remove a download that is reported to be destroying people's games and making them unusable even after deleting the content. But then the current moderation process does nothing about rejecting broken or game-breaking content anyway - so while it judges presentation it actually doesn't protect the end user anyway. That relies purely on subsequent user feedback.

In some ways it might have been more useful if the moderation process consisted of game testing, and therefore validation of safety. But even this can be misleading since a modder or creator can always upload an update without going through the queue again. And that update might be game-breaking. So some thought maybe should be given to what is actually being *said* about a download to end-users when that download is approved.

Nouk
14th Oct 2013, 12:05 PM
Exactly. It's not like downloaders need to have their decisions made by moderators in all respects. Sites can always remove a download that is reported to be destroying people's games and making them unusable even after deleting the content. But then the current moderation process does nothing about rejecting broken or game-breaking content anyway - so while it judges presentation it actually doesn't protect the end user anyway. That relies purely on subsequent user feedback.

In some ways it might have been more useful if the moderation process consisted of game testing, and therefore validation of safety. But even this can be misleading since a modder or creator can always upload an update without going through the queue again. And that update might be game-breaking. So some thought maybe should be given to what is actually being *said* about a download to end-users when that download is approved.

Wait, so is there in-game testing for custom content or not? If mods simply look at pictures and the list of items to see if it matches site rules and that is all, then of course I can do that myself. I assumed the items were tested lightly in game as well, to check the basics. (Does it explode, does it show up, does it function as it says it does.)
Did I assume too much for cosmetic mods?

Well if that's all, I guess I could send them to someone for testing and just go with the auto-approve. It will make no difference.
(I'd rather avoid mass-testing by peers because if I can prevent some obvious things, I'd like to. Especially since recolors can be based on faulty stuff as well, faulty stuff can be included with sims, etc.)

HystericalParoxysm
14th Oct 2013, 12:11 PM
No, there has never been in-game testing for anything except for featuring. Or, rather, we leave it up to moderator discretion - they CAN test in-game if they want, but usually do not and it's usually only the new and eager mods who try to do it before they realize that it takes ages to download an item, load your game, find it in-game, test it thoroughly, and then come back and moderate it, and then there's 15 more things in the queue after that, and 15 more tomorrow...

Sometimes we'll open things in SimPE or S3PE to check things (especially like for TS2 Body Shop stuff, which can have completely broken files if you upload straight from Projects instead of Savedsims - the filename's a clue but not 100% certain) but we can't require moderators have every EP/SP so they can test everything, or to download from a page-long shopping list of required content for a house, or whatever. Which is why the guidelines have been so stringent, to make sure we can see that the content is fine based on the pics and info presented.

Nouk
14th Oct 2013, 12:15 PM
No, there has never been in-game testing for anything except for featuring. Or, rather, we leave it up to moderator discretion - they CAN test in-game if they want, but usually do not and it's usually only the new and eager mods who try to do it before they realize that it takes ages to download an item, load your game, find it in-game, test it thoroughly, and then come back and moderate it, and then there's 15 more things in the queue after that, and 15 more tomorrow...

Sometimes we'll open things in SimPE or S3PE to check things (especially like for TS2 Body Shop stuff, which can have completely broken files if you upload straight from Projects instead of Savedsims - the filename's a clue but not 100% certain) but we can't require moderators have every EP/SP so they can test everything, or to download from a page-long shopping list of required content for a house, or whatever. Which is why the guidelines have been so stringent, to make sure we can see that the content is fine based on the pics and info presented.

Makes sense. For cosmetic mods and some objects you can usually fire up Anygamestarter for a quicker test, but that doesn't go for other downloads.

M.M.A.A.
14th Oct 2013, 12:25 PM
We do have the My Feedback page, under User Options. The problems with notifications is that we don't have a notifications system :p . Email notifications used to pants the servers, so we turned them off; we still have a protozoal on-site notifications system floating around somewhere, but it was never finished.


Oh, it does exist! Thanks!

Now I hope others are aware of it!

Tashiketh
14th Oct 2013, 1:58 PM
My suggestions (yes, I know, I upload here too occasionally!):

- An easier way of uploading and attaching pictures, using drag-drop, and previewing them.
- A better way of previewing the whole post
- A seperate section for a changelog, CC lists, etc, thats editable apart from the main text
- A better looking upload wizard
- Better analytics of how many uploads I get per-section, per-thread, and overall
- A notification if a download I make goes Trending
- A notification if a download I make gets picked
- A way of sorting which picture gets put first

NonaMena
14th Oct 2013, 2:02 PM
That and one thing that I'd like would be having the post split. I'll try to explain it the best I can but basically instead of having to write the post in one box, more boxes, each one representing a section (i.e. Requirements, Description, Specifics, etc...). This would save time having to make your own layout and make it simpler for those who have a hard time figuring out what to write (*cough cough* me *cough*)

A Changelog section would be nice too, without having to change the post to include them.

Last, a marker that describes what changed, something like what Twallan has on NRaas (i.e. Coding update, Translation update, ...) keeping a custom one where you write why you updated it (as it is now).

What I'm describing is something along the line of elements that you add to the post and customize them to your needs :)

EDIT : I've just noticed Nonamena suggested something similar too, so yeah, that too :up:

On this subject there is one part of the upload process that confused me when I uploaded my first mod here, and it caused my mod to get a CR. In one of the steps, it asks you to list the patch level required for the mod. Well, I entered it and assumed," ok, now I have listed the patch level", so I didn't include it as part of the main text of the thread. However, patch level information is required to be part of the main text as well (which I totally understand), so I got a CR about that. Now, once I had learned that, I didn't really have trouble with my mods. I think I have had all of two CRs. But the process is tedious and a waste of moderator time. We all do this in our free time, creators and moderators alike. Waiting days through the MTS queue, just to be told that you forgot to add the patch level to the main text of the post and then having to wait again after adding one line to the post is very discouraging and a little insulting. Its like "I put all this effort into my stuff, and I have to continue waiting for it to be published because of 3 little numbers." I'm not saying patch level isn't important. I think it's very important, but when you get a CR because of the patch level, which you essentially have to enter twice, it feels like an utter waste of time. This is why a template of some sort would be really helpful.

I have to say that, even if everyone used the same template for mod posts just out of sheer laziness, I don't think it would be a bad thing for the site (as long as the template would remain optional). Personally, I'm pretty happy when people use the same general format for mod posts. It makes it easy to find all of the important details relating to a mod with just a quick glance at the post.

ijustneedsomeeyes
14th Oct 2013, 2:23 PM
I agree with nonamena about the templates. It will make the mods' lives easier and get downloads through faster to the downloaders. Other than that and better support for new modders to help them grow (see my post in the downloaders' thread), everything about MTS is perfect. The mods do the best they can and it shows: during my whole time downloading stuff here, I only came across one broken download among a sea of functional and high quality downloads.

joandsarah77
14th Oct 2013, 2:30 PM
I had my first hotel come back due to something very similar. I had put all the room prices at the end of each room description and not where the price of the lot goes. So I put the price from lowest to highest room in there as well-which to me didn't make a whole lot of sense as that was not the lot price. I then had to wait again when really all the info was in the main text to begin with. So I wouldn't mind templates.

Simlicious
14th Oct 2013, 2:35 PM
I like the high quality standards for uploading at MTS. There are not many sites with standards like that, it gives the downloaders a safe place to find quality content and us creators a great place to share our very best creations.
I have to agree though that some changes to moderation would be nice. Having the option to skip moderation for a certain category or make it optional for those with picked uploads/highest rated uploads in that cateogory would help. Having moderators that create the types of CC that they are reviewing themselves would help tremendously!
I think the current star rating is a good idea and is helpful, but only when used correctly.
I had moderators telling me my polycount for clothes was too high, though I used EA meshes as reference for it. And I was once helping a friend with her first clothing upload at MTS; a retexture of a basegame mesh. She was accused of not using an EA mesh and her download was rejected, although it definitely was an EA mesh. She was so upset that she didn't want to upload anymore. Where's the trust?
So, long story short, moderators should ideally have expert knowledge of what they are reviewing, otherwise uploaders really have a reason to be pissed off about it.

Inge Jones
14th Oct 2013, 3:30 PM
I get the impression most moderators don't even really enjoy doing the queue so anything that means they have less work might be welcome. Whether that be having fewer rules, more automated checking, or fewer people having to wait in that queue. And when it comes to having subject experts doing the moderating, that may be a little unrealistic because I imagine that many of the top creators would rather create than moderate. There are certainly subject experts on the MTS team but there is a turnover as people can get burnt out and inevitably some creators will end up having their work rated by someone far less experienced at their own area than themselves.

wtfever2
14th Oct 2013, 3:51 PM
I don't upload to MTS, but I do download here and I learned how to create CC here and thus will forever be indebted to this site, so please keep that in mind when reading this feedback.

My idea of a great site:
- ability to change screen names
- links that work / removal of recolours linked to meshes from dead sites
- unmoderated uploads
- more personalization
- sort by downloads/votes
- no orwellian tracking (or at least the ability to disable it)
- minimal moderation in general
- gorgeous custom content
- eye-candy (but practical) frontend

I think this site is the best resource for modding and creation, but my ideal sims site would be a place that I want to play on rather than just learn from. I hope this feedback helps.

Tashiketh
14th Oct 2013, 4:42 PM
On this subject there is one part of the upload process that confused me when I uploaded my first mod here, and it caused my mod to get a CR. In one of the steps, it asks you to list the patch level required for the mod. Well, I entered it and assumed," ok, now I have listed the patch level", so I didn't include it as part of the main text of the thread. However, patch level information is required to be part of the main text as well (which I totally understand), so I got a CR about that.

Well that's just plain... weird. If the upload wizard explicitly asks you for patch version and then it gets put on CR for not having a patch version then we need to change that. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

HystericalParoxysm
14th Oct 2013, 6:15 PM
You are absolutely right about all of that, Inge. Doing the queue is... not particularly fun, and it's day in and day out and anonymous and just... bleh. It's easy to burn out, and very hard to come back from that burnout. Changes that make less queue moderation are -excellent-... as long as they also serve the users.

M.M.A.A.
14th Oct 2013, 8:51 PM
Nothing to do with uploads but I would really like to have the character limit for the signature to be increased, for me, 300 or 500 or whatever it is is not enough. :)

Also, is it possible for creators (only) to be able to have more than 5 lines in the signature? I'd appreciate if we (or everyone, doesn't need to be for creators only) can more than five lines in our signatures, it can get a bit messy if we cram things in one line, example the first line of my signature.

ani_
14th Oct 2013, 9:11 PM
I have not yet read the whole thread, but I do agree with Missy that having English spelling instead of American-English shouldn't be a reason to reject the upload.

I do not want how-ever moderating to be completely removed. But some common sense should be used.
I for one wish that if you make a no-someannoyinginteraction mod, you wouldn't be asked to make 5 different tuning files for it.

I had a mod of this type rejected, I'm not bitter but the reasoning behind it made no sense. It said something like doing tuning files is so easy to make anybody can do them and you can't upload just one but you have to have flavors. But if it's so easy then it should be ok to just upload that one file, tell in the instructions what value was modified, what was the original and what it is now and if somebody wants to tune it they can do it themselves.

Also multipart downlods. Is there a reason why a zip is limited to 10mb? I have to say I was a bit shocked how many do not know how to unzip a multipar rar. :|

Inge Jones
14th Oct 2013, 9:28 PM
The question on tuning mods really should be "Do end users really feel the site is no good them to download from if creators are allowed to upload single-flavor tuning mods?" I'd guess no. And I'd guess the same applied to modern boxy houses, to say nothing of eery haunted castles that were rejected over and over until they had bright lights and cheerful wallpaper in every room. It had been in danger of becoming a site where download choice for end users is limited due to moderator's preference for certain styles.

I can understand one wouldn't want ones's disks swamped with a hundred identical boxy houses, and I wonder if it would be acceptable to actually archive off those uploads that didn't achieve a threshold of downloads after a certain time. Let the users be the style judge.

Tashiketh
14th Oct 2013, 10:04 PM
I had a mod of this type rejected, I'm not bitter but the reasoning behind it made no sense. It said something like doing tuning files is so easy to make anybody can do them and you can't upload just one but you have to have flavors. But if it's so easy then it should be ok to just upload that one file, tell in the instructions what value was modified, what was the original and what it is now and if somebody wants to tune it they can do it themselves.

Also multipart downlods. Is there a reason why a zip is limited to 10mb? I have to say I was a bit shocked how many do not know how to unzip a multipar rar. :|

The fact that doing tuning mods is "easy" is precisly why this rule exists. But the key thing is that it's not easy for everybody - that way, with a little extra effort on the part of the uploader, they can get a lot more from the downloader.

Zips are limited to 10mb because back in 2004 not everybody had super fast broadband. ;)

Christine11778
15th Oct 2013, 6:01 AM
I have been uploading here since 2006 and for the most part I have enjoyed the site and have appreciated what this site has done for the community in general. I have found as of late that moderation of an upload takes days and is subject to whomever is doing it and this is not always consistent. I feel the guidelines are tedious and somewhat off-putting. I wish we could have a short / to the point list (the guidelines are a bit verbose)of what is required for the item we are uploading. If there are changes to the guidelines it would be nice to have a notice of this when we are uploading an item so we can check out the new guidelines (I don't check the guidelines every time I upload).

kithri
15th Oct 2013, 6:42 AM
Hmmm. Maybe because I've been a professional writer and am used to the editorial process, a process that can takes MONTHS, and even YEARS to even get a rejection slip with no feedback at all, I don't mind the moderation process on MTS. In fact, while I would prefer a turnaround of tomorrow on my creations, I find even 4 days to be positively speedy compared to what I am accustomed to.

I agree that it does take some effort to take the screenshots and edit them for size, but it really isn't that hard. I do create a bit less because the screenshots eat into my creation time, but I often have fun playing Sim photographer, too. So it's all good.

I enjoy downloading from MTS and trust the quality of the content I find here, in part because of the moderation. I would really hate to see moderation go away, both from a consumer and a creator's perspective. I've gotten some great feedback from the moderators that made me work a bit harder and improve my creations (along with the occasional non-helpful opinion).

Inge Jones
15th Oct 2013, 8:44 AM
Hmmm. Maybe because I've been a professional writer

Of course, professional means *paid*. While many people will feel as you do, there are others who might reason that they're being asked to turn something they do for leisure into an onorous task. 8 hours exciting object meshing then 4 hours tedious form filling, or whichever way round. And that's before they commit the minor slip up that saw them get stamped PHAIL! I think Delphy and HP are looking for a solution that doesn't alienate either faction of the site's potential contributors, or their users.

Volvenom
15th Oct 2013, 9:33 AM
I enjoy downloading from MTS and trust the quality of the content I find here, in part because of the moderation. I would really hate to see moderation go away, both from a consumer and a creator's perspective. I've gotten some great feedback from the moderators that made me work a bit harder and improve my creations (along with the occasional non-helpful opinion).

I also agree on this. I know things I download on mts holds a certain standard, but I may not always agree on the moderation. Since I'm mostly building modern I do feel like there is too little knowledge on modern architecture on mts sometimes. Despite the sometimes lack of knowledge I do prefer having a moderation for new creators because I think it's needed. What standard people expect, and expecting feedback is a learning process. Not everyone knows how to deal with feedback, they sometimes takes it too personal. When that's been said I have had my share of rude comments from moderators who in my opinion have a too strong opinion on what's good and bad. People are different and when some people in the feedback forum likes what you do it isn't always understandable how a moderator suddenly rejects the house because it's not what they expect. In the end it's an opinion thing, and people do not always agree.

I have a little side thing here about links. When I download from mts I don't expect to be redirected to an external site, and I don't like it. I trust mts, but I may not trust an external site. It may just be a matter of this new organization or the site though, perhaps I clicked the wrong link or something.

HystericalParoxysm
15th Oct 2013, 11:39 AM
We don't redirect to an external site for downloads. Downloads are served from chii.modthesims.info - chii is our downloads server (for the moment, every few years Delphy reorganizes things and sometimes we get a new server name, usually named after anime characters).

Perhaps there was a link below the download link for an off-site mesh and you clicked that instead?

Esmeralda
15th Oct 2013, 12:29 PM
I enjoy downloading from MTS and trust the quality of the content I find here, in part because of the moderation. I would really hate to see moderation go away, both from a consumer and a creator's perspective. I've gotten some great feedback from the moderators that made me work a bit harder and improve my creations (along with the occasional non-helpful opinion).
100% agree with this. I would not like to see upload moderation go away. It's been the unique thing about MTS that sets it apart from other sites, in that you know you're much more likely to get a decent quality download that works and that looks the way it's been depicted in the screenshots. I've had a considerable amount of disappointment when downloading elsewhere and finding that the items are poor quality, badly made, don't look the way they look in the screenshots,etc.

On the other hand:
...being asked to turn something they do for leisure into an onorous task. 8 hours exciting object meshing then 4 hours tedious form filling, or whichever way round. And that's before they commit the minor slip up that saw them get stamped PHAIL!
This scenario can be off-putting too. I've had my share of 'Changes Requireds' and usually they've been reasonable and no problem, often even quite helpful as kithri described above. But my last two uploads (which were for TS2 rather than TS3 as all of my previous creations had been, and maybe the requirements for TS2 are more stringent) were indeed an onerous task, as they were returned several times with very time-consuming changes required to both mesh and texture, until with my last upload I had to say 'If it doesn't pass muster this time, please just delete it', because the hours and hours involved in making yet another set of major changes, checking them again in-game to make sure they still looked and worked right, taking another new set of screenshots, etc was keeping me from real-life stuff I needed to do, and it became very stressful. So I can understand Inge's (and others') point of view about that type of frustration.

All things considered, though, I think the upload moderation situation here has been just about right, and I'd rather it erred on the side of being too picky than not picky enough. I would be saddened to see it become too much more lenient if it means a notable drop in quality.

Volvenom
15th Oct 2013, 12:43 PM
We don't redirect to an external site for downloads. Downloads are served from chii.modthesims.info - chii is our downloads server (for the moment, every few years Delphy reorganizes things and sometimes we get a new server name, usually named after anime characters).

Perhaps there was a link below the download link for an off-site mesh and you clicked that instead?

It's from the homepage, I click on the pink boots and end up here: http://modthesims.info/finds/find/648, then I click on the blue text expecting to get to the download here and end up on his own site instead. A bit confusing.

HugeLunatic
15th Oct 2013, 12:48 PM
Volvenom that is the Finds Database. It is a listing of content from around the community, it is not just MTS content.

orangemittens
15th Oct 2013, 1:12 PM
My ideal upload site would be one where the rules are clearly spelled out in writing and applied evenly to all creators and to any given creator at all times. For example, I had one upload here rejected because my screenshot was 60 pixels too small but, in looking at other people's uploads, found numerous instances where this rule was not enforced for someone else's upload and their screenshots were even further off the mark than mine. I've used certain kinds of screenshots which were acceptable for one upload but rejected on the next.

Rules governing uploads should be clearly spelled out *before* being applied to any given creator. I've had more than one upload sent back for new screenshots because the rule was changed *after* I uploaded and, in fact, was such a new rule it wasn't even in the written guidelines yet. I was, however, told I had to meet the requirements of that rule when there was no way I could have known of its existance when I designed my upload. Taking screenshots is, for many, a PIA and the least fun part of the sharing process. Going to the trouble of taking them so they meet the written rules only to be told you must change them to meet unwritten rules is annoying.

I think it's fine to have standards and rules. I also think the rules here make sense. However, I don't think the rules are applied evenly and I don't think they are always added to the guidelines before being enforced. This makes the upload process into an arbitrary exercise in frustration.

I agree with the person above who said that an item should be moderated by someone who has a clue how that item is made. If there's no one on staff with that knowledge perhaps someone could be recruited. If the mod doesn't know the inherent limitations of object/CAS/pose creation they cannot know that certain issues with an item are unavoidable. After waiting for days for something to get through the queue it's annoying to have to go through some negotiation process with a mod who rejected an item based on issues they don't know anything about.

At my ideal site the moderators would not use the queue as a personal request section. I haven't uploaded here in awhile so maybe things have changed but when I did upload it seemed almost every single time there were requests for changes that were not based on my item's quality but rather on the preference of the mod I happened to be dealing with. I've had mods request that I change the price of an object, make an extra recolorable channel on an object, make a pose look different than the anatomically correct one I had made, and change a pose in my pose pack because it didn't fit a "theme" the mod thought the pack should have. None of these requests were based on existing written rules but were based on the arbitrary whim of the mod. I started to feel that the only request section MTS has is the upload queue and the only people allowed to make requests here are the queue mods.

I think there is a disconnect between how MTS appears to feel about uploads and how many uploaders feel about them. Most people I've spoken to about dissatisfaction with the upload process here feel that the things they upload are a like a gift they're giving to the community. Not a gift in the sense of their item being just that wonderful but in the sense of it being something they've spent time on, put a lot of care into, and are sharing for free because they want others to enjoy it also.

MTS takes this gift, lets it sit in a queue without comment for long periods of time and then, often, sends a terse message saying essentially I didn't even open this gift because your picture was 10 pixels too big or whatever and, oh by the way, I would like it better if it were more like how I would make it than it is how you made it. In so many ways the process gives the impression that MTS does not value the gift-giving element of uploading. I'm not suggesting that every single upload should be accepted as-is or that creators need the moderators to fawn over them but I do think a little more care for people's feelings would go a long way to making this a process more people are willing to engage in.

MTS wants to be a site where people upload things for free...that is a site where people are giving gifts of time, creativity, and (varying) levels of talent. That should be acknowledged more explicitly in this process and if it isn't you're going to lose talented people who find more kindness and consideration elsewhere.

BloodyScholastic
15th Oct 2013, 3:16 PM
I realized my wishlist is mainly putting emphasis on new bootstrap layout theme/technical issues and compatible to downloaders' opinion as well.

- MTS in new bootstrap theme now, having bigger picture thumbnail, bigger box, than the old theme has. The problem is, the title, especially long title, is not fit into the thumbnail box.

Example. A lot with full title: "Serenity: A calming beach house retreat." In the thumbnail box on download page, it appears cut-off text: "Serenity - A calming beach house... ". Just that it. It's sad actually uploaders can now have bigger (prettier) thumbnail download picture, but the title, just like the way the uploaders name it, got cut. The long title might be interesting. Cut-off title may cause impracticability/inconvenience to downloaders, so they must click the download page to see what the full title is.

-A preview summary text to the content itself where it should have been on old theme, now gone on new bootstrap theme. When uploaders upload their contents, uploading list asks us to fill "summary text" fill box. Type in here the short "summary" description that you want to appear on the download category pages. (Max 20 words. BBcode is allowed.) below title text box. The text we write on summary text box, will not appear in thumbnail box on download page. The thumbnail box now is just consist of picture and title. No more brief preview text like in the old days MTS. I like brief preview a lot, it helps making the download content much more interesting that can sell the content itself, bringing sense of humour of content summary from the uploaders, bringing brief summary detail what is that content about so the downloaders don't have to click every download page to see and read from top to bottom description text what is that content about. For example, a Sim download content. One of my creation is Aveline Higgins. She just shows her face there and with her name there on download page among other Sim creations. What I want to differ her from other female Sims, is that she is unique and stand-out, not just an usual female-teen-pretty-modelling-nice-people-material, so I added her summary text her brief background story to make her much more interesting. "An ex-SIA experimental project turns out to be the most dangerous teen in Sims history." When I'm in old MTS theme layout, not new bootstrap theme layout, the summary text appears right below the title. When I switched to the new bootstrap theme, my shocked the summary text was gone! She just like other Sim creations there, looks general. Without brief summary explanation, she is losing her uniqueness from the thumbnail. Because of brief summary/explanation has gone, I feared that downloaders might judge the Sim creations from his/her pretty face and thumbnail picture quality. The chance of clicking Sims content page category for more normal face/less handsome/pretty/modelling material but actually an interesting Sims might be decreasing. I don't care about my download counts and popularity, but I feel it might be unfair for the rest of other uploaders other than me to upload "non-general beauty material" type Sims. The same applies to other contents. My mod "Nerd Group Only Computer Games Unlocked" may raise the downloaders' question. Which computer games to be unlocked? What is the mod function for? They have to click my mod page, reading the description from top to bottom to see what is my mod about. With brief summary, "Now everybody can play FIFA, SimCity and SSX" << it means unlock FIFA, Simcity, SSX game titles. It would clear up from the beginning so it may save downloaders' time to see and pick to download, among many downloadable contents on MTS to offer. If uploaders need to write the brief summary then eventually they write on the title, the longer the title is, the text will be cut-off.

So what's the summary text fill box on uploading creation for? If the summary text no longer appears in in the download page, then remove the summary text fill box. If the summary text still needed, then make it appears on download page! So the summary text fill box is not just wasted.

-Picture size. It's hard to pick size that fits nicely on the page. I uploaded 1280 x 1024 pixels, a "square-ish" maximum picture resolution can be submitted here, eventually got automatically resized. The same goes apply to the vertical picture, got automatically resized that makes the picture looks too small on the page. Non-square-ish size / widescreen size, is much more harder to put on page. It also got automatically resized that makes it even smaller than the "square-ish" picture size. I always wonder which ...x... pixels that actually fits better onto the page, both horizontal and vertical. I've seen some pictures on several uploads don't get resized, big and pretty.

- Moderators should have told the number of recolourable channel presets allowed from the beginning. I'm new to the TS3 object creation and I had read the creators' guidelines, there is no rule to make specific object should have 2 or 3 or 4 channel presets. So I created 3 channel presets from 3 channel presets cloned object because I had tried to make 4 channels and it failed miserably. Because there is no guideline to tell object creation should have 2 or 3 or 4 recoulourable channels so I decided 3 by my own. I submitted the result then got chance required because the channel presets are wrong. It supposed to fill all object presets not just specific presets with non-recolourable preset << it should have been 4 channels, not 3. I couldn't make change within 3 days so I told the moderators to put my upload down. I wish there is an example or rule on creator guidelines from the beginning so I wouldn't have wasted my 3 months creating object from the scratch with wrong recolourable channel presets. I feel the frustration of checking every change made to work perfectly on game, sometimes the changes don't work as I expected (borked/wrong texture/distorted), taking new screenshots, resizing pictures, very time-consuming.

surprised_by_witches
16th Oct 2013, 12:36 AM
First of all, I don't understand your lot sizes: they don't match the game. Use the sizes the game does, please, or at least don't judge us when we can't figure out the minutia of uploading. It's frankly daunting.

I've had moderators tell me how to change my lot, entirely. If you want something like that, build your own.

And, I've had perfectly lovely lots rejected only to see nightmares that were accepted. Decorating schemes that look like they were done by little kids have passed. I always take care to make mine nice.

I no longer submit items because I feel I'll be rejected no matter what, even though others have enjoyed using my lots and sims. Yes, I use the dreaded Exchange. I don't need all the hassle for trying to share what I have. If people don't like it, they won't download it.

My two cents, since you asked. I've been a member for several years but only to download. I don't have warm and fuzzy feelings about the rest of this site. It feels exclusive and dismissive. I'm too old for that kind of nonsense.

BlakeS5678
16th Oct 2013, 12:53 AM
As a creator, I have a confession to make; I horde my creations. If you click on my Username you will see that I have three things uploaded. How many things have I created? Tens, dozens, if not hundreds of things just sitting wasting in my downloads folder. These include lots, Sims, recolors, clothing, and objects, oh my. Granted, some of them aren't that great so I wouldn't share them anyways, but still. I don't upload simply because I spend hours if not days on one project and I've already donated so much time that the thought of spending 1-2 weeks is exhausting (which is supposed to be 3-4 days) Worrying over whether it will get rejected or if the mod will like it, or if I forgot a screenshot, or one tiny detail is missing, etc. It's just too much for me. I just can't do it. I'm happy to share my creations, but, what we have isn't sharing, it feels like spending hours on a test and handing it to that teacher that's never happy.

This is what I propose. If you have a picked/featured creation in anything, no more queue. Yes, I do think that they should be reviewed at some point, but, not before it gets approved. While that sounds easy, very few people are picked/featured, so I feel that it won't do away with the entire upload system. I think you could even layer this with other ideas.

joandsarah77
16th Oct 2013, 2:04 AM
I still think it should only be for areas you are featured or picked in. I have a few picked lots, I would like to be able to queue jump my lots; but what if I decided I wanted to make clothing? Well any clothes I made you would probably want to shoot on sight to put it out of it's misery.

kithri
16th Oct 2013, 3:48 AM
Of course, professional means *paid*. While many people will feel as you do, there are others who might reason that they're being asked to turn something they do for leisure into an onorous task. 8 hours exciting object meshing then 4 hours tedious form filling, or whichever way round. And that's before they commit the minor slip up that saw them get stamped PHAIL!

Well, for on speculation writing (i.e., you write a short story and submit to a magazine without an invitation to do so from the editor...kind of like a cold call) you only get paid if the editor likes your stuff; otherwise, it gets sent back to you and you're out of luck. I got paid now and again (and was a staff writer somewhere for a while), but much more often got the big PHAIL...but my point is that when you have a whole lot of people trying to give, sell, or otherwise fill your magazine, website, or whatever with stuff, lots and lots of stuff--most of it horrible, some of it decent, and just a small percentage of it really good--you either have a magazine/website full of crap, or you have one that discriminates and tries to provide its consumers with only the best. Of course, the "best" is always partially a matter of opinion....

I think Delphy and HP are looking for a solution that doesn't alienate either faction of the site's potential contributors, or their users.

So you either have a gate and a gatekeeper and higher quality, or you have lower quality and a wider gate.

Edit: So, what I wrote sounds elitist, but that isn't what I wanted to leave as the take away. What I wanted to say was "I don't want MTS to be like the other large sites that have no quality control at all (or at least, seem to have none)." As an avid MTS downloader and somewhat new creator, I like the bar being higher than the floor; I trust that when I download here my game usually won't be borked because of it. There are some sites I just won't download from anymore because of multiple bad experiences in the past.

CatOfEvilGenius
16th Oct 2013, 5:08 AM
I happen to like the upload moderation process. It's actually one of the reasons I have uploaded to MTS in the past. (My hiatus was due to real life stuff, not changes to MTS.) Yes, the queue wait times are not instant. I can live with that, no problem, provided they are days, not weeks. When I look at sites for the general public that accept things without moderation, the difference in quality of offerings is very apparent.

I'm very much against the idea of letting the "good" creators upload without moderation. I think it would be harmful to the spirit of community to give some people special treatment, especially since "good" can be rather subjective. Quality work will go through the queue faster, so I don't see a problem. If the queue is slow for the "good" people, I'm sure it's even slower for those whose uploads require more revision. I'v been asked to revise my uploads sometimes and I personally don't feel like I'm being harshly judged or doing work instead of fun. I feel like I'm being held to a high standard and I approve of that. Yes, preparing stuff for upload on MTS takes a long time. I think the end result is very much worth it, and I say that as a downloader. (Not dissing creators who'd rather put stuff on their tumblr, some of you make my favorite stuff, but damn, it's hard to keep up with individual creator sites and their search and filter capabilities are negligible to nonexistent.)

Judging uploads *after* uploading, then removing them, just seems like asking for massive drama and hurt feelings. People who are already sensitive about being judged will only be more so when it's done publicly by removing their upload, rather than quietly and privately in the mod queue. I would hate to have that happen to my stuff. Really, it seems to me creators are upset in large part about queue wait times. Add more queue mods and I bet there'll be less complaints about queues and moderation.

Might post other thoughts as they come to me, but had to chime in about the queues and moderation.


edit:

Not saying moderation can't be improved and streamlined, just don't do it at the expense of quality control. I know MTS mods have never checked personally if stuff works in game because that's not practical, but I really think moderation is about quality, not only presentation. For example, no fuzzy textures, no bucket fill, show how stuff looks in game, that's about quality.

Some people enjoy the feeling of approval by people in authority, and that's fine
Hope that's not how I came across. I don't do this to get a pat on the head from authority, and don't consider the mods authorities. I see them more as organizers, facilitators, and doers of thankless and often unappreciated site drudge work. It's the standards that I like.

orangemittens
16th Oct 2013, 6:58 AM
,,,but my point is that when you have a whole lot of people trying to give, sell, or otherwise fill your magazine, website, or whatever with stuff....I'm guessing that this site isn't asking for feedback from uploaders because there's a whole lot of super talented people trying to give their uploads away here. This used to be *the* place to go for great game content and now it just isn't because so many talented people have stopped uploading here. I personally know several great creators who never even considered uploading here because of the reputation this place has. I know a few more who have stopped uploading here because they don't care for the feel of the place anymore. To me this thread looks like it's a letter to the community asking why.

The thing is no one is going to get paid for uploading here and it isn't going to benefit anyone's career either. People are uploading for various reasons but none of those reasons end up in money so my bet it's for emotional reasons. This means that if the site is feeling there is a dearth of quality uploads and they want to change that the answer is to find out what those emotional requirements are and then think of a way to fulfill them. At the very least MTS should figure out what it's doing to make uploaders feel it is, in the words of surprised_by_witches, "exclusive and dismissive". I think there are very few people who are going to want to provide free uploads in an environment like that and, like it or not, this site has generated that reputation in at least part of the community. When you're talking about something that's a hobby you need to consider what it is your site offers that rewards people for contributing...you need to answer the question..."what is it about my site that makes it fun to be here?"

In my opinion, the queue asks people to toe some line of professionalism that is not matched by the level of professionalism of moderation on the other side. I have to ask...what does this site think it is giving people in exchange for free uploads? Maybe thinking on that while fixing the queue issues would help focus attention on issues that are causing people to not want to upload here.

I realize that none of us are being paid, but if we want to be paid (a pittance, too), we all know where to go. They have no gate; I rarely download from there for fear of what I will get and I choose not to house my work there, either.

There is no reason to pose this in terms of uploading here for free or uploading at (for a pittance) elsewhere. It's very easy to start a free blog, there are a gazillion forums to upload to, or you can always just share your creations with friends (a lot of creators started out just sharing with friends). There are plenty of alternatives to uploading here. I value this place more for its past then for its current state but I hope a solution is found. Honestly though, going forward with the idea that creators are dying to upload here right now isn't the right mindset for success as things currently are in my opinion.

buggybooz
16th Oct 2013, 7:13 AM
Cat, the majority of seasoned creators who have posted here on this thread and do not or no longer post their uploads to MTS seem mostly upset about all the "changes required" and uneven standards applied. Wait times, although important too, has less priority in the list of grievances. (PS, I didn't click the disagree).

What is subjective is this talk of a high quality standard. There used to be a large mix of downloads: fledgling creators next to seasoned ones and room for people to improve as they learnt more. The TS2 section has some nice stuff in it but there is a fair bit of "bucketfill" and "2006" type uploads. When is the last time someone posted a newly meshed object set for TS3? I think some people still post sometimes in order to retain a "presence" and it is sad that I even think that.

If moderators are gauging the quality of a download by a few pictures and a description alone then anything cosmetic should go through or be rejected within seconds and not subject to somebody's whims. Anyone with experience can see a photoshopped picture of a download.

My last upload here was so much hard work to get through some kind of invisible red tape that I came out of it with the distinct feeling of not being welcome anymore and I have no desire or reason to go through that again. Reading the comments here I realise that I am not the only one who has had the same red tape. I agree that there should still be some kind of moderation but the way things are being moderated is the root of the problem.

Inge Jones
16th Oct 2013, 9:07 AM
I actually quite like using the EA exchange. Their rule is that the uploads judge themselves. As long as people are downloading, the item self-approves. Uploads that don't get downloaded are purged from time to time to make room for new. Instead of having hundreds of rules about screenshots, the upload process creates the necessary images for you - but it doesn't stop you also making your own. Of course it's only good for creations that can be made and shared from the game, but it's so relaxing to use!

Volvenom
16th Oct 2013, 9:22 AM
I'm guessing that this site isn't asking for feedback from uploaders because there's a whole lot of super talented people trying to give their uploads away here. This used to be *the* place to go for great game content and now it just isn't because so many talented people have stopped uploading here. I personally know several great creators who never even considered uploading here because of the reputation this place has. I know a few more who have stopped uploading here because they don't care for the feel of the place anymore. To me this thread looks like it's a letter to the community asking why..

That is a good point. mts has been a place for great downloads, but when the first hirdle of moderation has been passed, and the creator feels like "I've got it now". It's just a hassle with all these more or less qualified moderators. There is a lot of places out there with possibilities for getting paid if that's what you want, or if you just want to share and don't really like learning how to get better, upload somewhere else. The moderation is something mts has to give downloads here a stamp of approval, and a guarantee of quality. For the "competition" out there, keeping the moderation might be a good idea.

HystericalParoxysm
16th Oct 2013, 9:27 AM
At the very least MTS should figure out what it's doing to make uploaders feel it is, in the words of surprised_by_witches, "exclusive and dismissive"

I think we have figured that out - both independently and with your (general your, creators on this thread) help and ideas. That is why we asked you guys how you feel about all of it, and what you would prefer to see instead. We want uploading here to be an enjoyable process where you can share your stuff alongside other good creators without it being a pain in the ass. And we don't want to push away the good creators as we have done. MTS is meant to be a place to share, learn, create, and enjoy, and... without even really realizing it, we wrapped it up in red tape. But we've got some really big scissors now. ;) And we want to do better for you guys. I think we lost sight that we are supposed to be serving the community. But that is absolutely our focus going forward.

Balancing high standards which downloaders want (which I think is something that really sets MTS apart from other sites and isn't something we want to lose) vs. making it easy on uploaders is the tricky part, but... I really think most of you guys will be very happy with a couple pretty big changes we have in the works and hope to give you more details as soon as they're stapled down. :)

joandsarah77
16th Oct 2013, 9:35 AM
I'm excited to see it. :)

missyhissy
16th Oct 2013, 11:36 AM
I'm excited to see the changes too :)

HystericalParoxysm
16th Oct 2013, 11:44 AM
And we are really excited to show them to you. And to do so before we actually put the system in place, so you have a chance to have your say about it - I know it won't be 100% of people who will like it, but I'm hopeful that 95% will think it's great, and most of that remaining 5% won't utterly hate it. ;) I really feel like we're turning over a new leaf, and I want you guys to love it, understand the reasons behind it, and to be positive about it once you see it, because I truly believe it is -awesome-. :)

I hope to have a preliminary draft of it for you guys to review within the next day or so, and the actual changes should go live by the end of next month (no more "Real soon now!" - we have deadlines! hard deadlines!) if all goes well.

kithri
16th Oct 2013, 3:49 PM
I'm very much against the idea of letting the "good" creators upload without moderation. I think it would be harmful to the spirit of community to give some people special treatment, especially since "good" can be rather subjective. Quality work will go through the queue faster, so I don't see a problem. If the queue is slow for the "good" people, I'm sure it's even slower for those whose uploads require more revision. I'v been asked to revise my uploads sometimes and I personally don't feel like I'm being harshly judged or doing work instead of fun. I feel like I'm being held to a high standard and I approve of that. Yes, preparing stuff for upload on MTS takes a long time. I think the end result is very much worth it, and I say that as a downloader. (Not dissing creators who'd rather put stuff on their tumblr, some of you make my favorite stuff, but damn, it's hard to keep up with individual creator sites and their search and filter capabilities are negligible to nonexistent.)

Judging uploads *after* uploading, then removing them, just seems like asking for massive drama and hurt feelings. People who are already sensitive about being judged will only be more so when it's done publicly by removing their upload, rather than quietly and privately in the mod queue. I would hate to have that happen to my stuff. Really, it seems to me creators are upset in large part about queue wait times.

Yeah. Gotta agree about the potential for a poo storm over these two paths.

Add more queue mods and I bet there'll be less complaints about queues and moderation.

Yes, and I would add to that, hold a few staff meetings with the mods explaining how to BE a mod, when to ask for changes and when not to. That would probably help, also. And perhaps if more of us were willing to pitch in to help with the queues, that would also help?

But it sounds like D and HP et al. have already settled on a Plan.

Inge Jones
16th Oct 2013, 3:58 PM
You'd have to be very tactful at these staff meetings. I can imagine a "well I don't like doing the queue anyway - if I am not doing it to your liking do it yourself" FX:door slamming

HystericalParoxysm
16th Oct 2013, 4:17 PM
We have added more queue mods. We added 12 of them a few months back, by far the most queue mods we've ever added and the most total queue mods I think we've ever had.

And more warm bodies is good, but it is no small thing to train up -one- person to be good at doing -one- area of the queue, let alone twelve on many different areas. It's not just about knowing the guidelines, knowing how to work the moderation queue system, knowing when to do what, but also the MUCH more difficult task of teaching people how to be tactful when it comes to having to tell someone that their thing they have worked hard on still needs a lot more work before it'll be truly good or even decently good... Learning to say that in a way that will be easy to swallow, encouraging, and not taken as an insult is... no small thing, and not something you can exactly give people a script for or teach in a couple months. Even harder when a not-insignificant portion of our moderators are not native English speakers - it's one thing to learn to be tactful in your native tongue, but even tougher to learn that skill in a new language. You can be fully fluent in that your words mean what you intend and you get your point across, but it's easy to sound very terse and grumpy when you don't mean to - lord knows I have that problem trying to speak Dutch as a native English speaker... I either sound like a bitch or a bumbling idiot. ;)

There's also the Reports section, Creator Issues, and Creator Feedback for moderators to look over as well. It's kind of a big workload, and throwing more people at the problem just means a bigger job of wrangling all those people (who are spread across all the time zones) - when this is not a full-time job for -any- of the staff.

And expecting daily work and excellence from unpaid volunteers who have jobs and lives and families and emergencies, and who might actually want to spend some of their free time making stuff themselves or need to take a break even if they're the only expert in a certain area... Yes, it is a very delicate balancing act. I think we've done pretty well at that particular part of it considering, but it is still really tough.


And, yes, I think we have settled on a great plan, and I've been writing up a thing to present to you guys so you can see what we have planned and will have an opportunity to voice any concerns - because the system is meant to serve the creators and if you guys hate it, then we'll have to do something different. But I think that we've come up with something really good which we hope will keep up a good quality standard and also serve creators much more than we have, allowing them to get their creations to downloaders without having to jump through a bunch of silly hoops.

QBUILDERZ
16th Oct 2013, 4:59 PM
Add more queue mods and I bet there'll be less complaints about queues and moderation.


This is a valid point, and admins actually brought on at least 10 new mods not too long ago, but there is a hidden and crucial flaw with it.



I used to moderate the lots and housing queue between 2010 / 2011 and stopped after about a year and a half of doing so. This was when we would get 14 submissions a day, 30 on weekends, and the downloads page was a bit less stagnant. It may not appear as such, but doing queue work is very draining for mods to handle, especially when you are the only one in charge of that queue (I was lucky enough to have a second mod help me out and I still had to take a break.) When we look at uploads, there is the need to make sure that uploaders followed the rules, made an appealing lot, and had a good post to back it up, but beyond that, we are required to talk nicely and give constructive feedback when people make mistakes. There are threads in the moderator area that are specifically written on how to talk to people properly and we try our best to be super nice about it, but as you can imagine, people don't take criticism (especially from an anonymous source) very well. Especially after they spent so much time reading the guidelines and uploading.

In addition to this, more often then not submissions aren't a clear cut yes or no. Lets imagine the MTS queue in an obscure example, like an apple and orange factory (with Apples being bad and Oranges being good.) There are always clear cut apples where we say "Friend, you didn't read the guidelines. You brought us a very red and shiny apple, but it is an apple and we strive for citrus-y fruits here at MTS. Here is the CF forum if you need feedback on turning that apple into an orange, good try, a bit more effort, etc. etc." and they get rejected. There are also a few clear cut oranges where we say "This orange has everything it needs and your creation looks awesome. Good job creating this orange spherical masterpiece!" and we post it. However, the majority of the uploads we get in queue are these hybrids of apples and oranges, and these are the areas where people and mods get flustered.

"Well, this is orange colored, but shaped like an apple."
"This apple is very aromatic and citrusy, but still apple looking."
"This tastes like an orange, but really it is a lemon and how did that get in here?"

THIS step is where the mod bias everyone complains about comes into effect. It is very, very hard to decide if what you're looking at is an apple or an orange. So, you either:

Justify it and let it slide: this is an orange I guess because it has 4 parts orange to 1 part apple.
Leave it sit in queue a bit longet because you have no idea: 3 parts orange to 2 parts apple. This is really pushing it.
Give CR and ask for some improvements: 4 parts apple to 1 part orange. There is a bit too much that's off to let this go.

and run with it. Then, those people you gave CRs to try and explain how what they uploaded is, in fact, an orange. You get called names, simsecrets show up about how you suck, how you're quality control is unfair, and how they left site because of it. Then you freak out, you quit queue, and you shy away from site for six months (like me!) Then, that queue comes to a halt while the admins scrounge together a new victim to take over the queue and the downward spiral continues until the site shuts down completely. In the past 4 years, there have 6 lots and housing queue mods alone (and that is JUST for TS3.) Bringing more on doesn't solve the problem -- it just leads to more flustered mods who burn out and it doesn't address the fact that people are still going to call us out on being biased (when we really only follow the guidelines given to us.) We implicated the rubrics which has weeded a good chunk of it out, but the stars alone aren't appeasing everybody and now people who HAVE uploaded before are complaining in new ways (e.g. "Why did I get 3 stars and not 5?") All of this is why this reform is taking place; we want to get rid of those stupid and unnecessary rules people get CR'd over, as well as allow the opportunity for people who have proven that they UNDERSTAND the rules (not necessarily people who are "good" as we want this to apply universally, not just give those of us with 50+ uploads an advantage) an easier time uploading. No more downward spirals and insane moderators, hopefully less CR's and accidental bias, still a quality standard, and hopefully more uploads :P

TL;DR:
- It doesn't address the trend of queue mods stressing out
- It doesn't change the strictness of the rules
- It only postpones the problem to a later date

leefish
16th Oct 2013, 5:18 PM
Yea, I sort of agree with Q there. Its hard. We want to give new creators a chance; we want to allow people to express their own ideas and individuality; we want people to have the same great feeling of seeing their item in game and having the happy feeling that goes with sharing it that we have had (all upload moderators are MTS creators).
I also want to try and make sure that they don't go through the crushing experience of being mocked on simsecret or in a worst finds thread somewhere. Am I over-protective? Probably.

BUT - we also want to make sure that the downloaders get a good deal too. So we have to say hey, please can you add this and this? Or can you add that detail to a post. And sometimes we are inconsistent I know - because we are human and we make mistakes.

And as a creator, I have my memories regarding uploads and the moderation of them and remarks made by the moderator that I thought were grossly unfair; it is hard to forget that stuff. It is hard to think ok, so the last lot I uploaded you made some "jokey" remark that offended me/hurt my feelings and/or made me take a load of extra pics which took me a while on top of the first set of pics that I had tried hard on. Yea, its easier to just not bother or upload somewhere else.

But here is the thing; everything I know about modding the sims is because of this site. The great friends I have made are because of this site. So I am willing to give MTS one last try with uploading because I still kind of feel that this place is my home. I hope other folks will give MTS a chance too once this new set up is in place.

Sorry for the ramble.

Inge Jones
16th Oct 2013, 5:30 PM
But here is the thing; everything I know about modding the sims is because of this site. The great friends I have made are because of this site. So I am willing to give MTS one last try with uploading because I still kind of feel that this place is my home. I hope other folks will give MTS a chance too once this new set up is in place.

Well my personal preferences are well known by now. I am 100% in favor of a central point for exchange of info, but I have always slightly rued the out-of-town-supermarket effect large sites like this have had on the smaller village store type of sites, when it comes to actual downloads. However that's what there is now and we may as well help make it the best it can be :)

HystericalParoxysm
16th Oct 2013, 9:42 PM
We have some major changes that we would like to make to the way MTS works, across several areas. These changes are designed to make it easier for good creators to share their creations quickly and easily, while still maintaining high quality standards, and while guiding new creators or those having problems meeting the standards.

The most major change to the system is:

Moderation Queue Bypass:

When you, as a creator, go to upload something, the system will check the records of your uploading history here, and if you meet certain criteria, your upload will not be sent to the moderation queue, but will instead go straight to the Downloads area. This system is meant to make it easier and faster to share content for those creators who are doing well already and don’t need someone to look over every detail of their uploads.

In order for an upload to bypass the queue, the following checks are made, in order (starting with the easiest to obtain and easiest on our database to calculate), and the creator must meet all three criteria:

1. Do you have at least 10 approved uploads on MTS? Creators with less than 10 approved uploads do not yet qualify. This gives an idea of a basic level of proficiency in creating good content and in understanding the guidelines.

2. Out of your last 10 attempts to upload to MTS (so looking at both things that were approved or rejected), how many of those were approved uploads? You need at least 9 out of 10.

3. Out of your last 5 attempts to upload to MTS, how many of those things required a moderator to ask for changes* more than once? This should be no more than 1.

* This means how many times have you gotten a PM saying "Changes required!" for a particular upload - not the amount of things you've been asked to fix in that PM.

Why do we do it this way?

Checking only the most recent uploads means that new creators whose reject rate may have been high in the past are not penalized for having trouble in the distant past, while creators who may have suddenly branched out into a new area (for example, they’ve just started making meshes, where previously they only made recolours) and are having difficulties will get a bit more guidance to achieve a high standard, but once they have improved again and uploaded some more things, they’ll be able to bypass the queue again if they meet the criteria.

Checking for multiple Changes Required means that if you’re doing well overall, and just need a little nudging about one or two things, that’s not a problem, as we’re not looking for perfection, just a willingness to fix issues when they arise. However, multiple CRs on a single upload usually indicates that you need a bit more guidance for now.

And because these criteria are based on your achievements as a creator, there is no manual override available to moderators. This means that even if a moderator hates or loves you, we can’t make you bypass the queue if you didn’t earn it, nor can we force you into the queue automatically if your stats meet the criteria to allow you to bypass the queue.

There may be a few people for whom the numbers don’t quite work, because of, say, an upload rejected at their request because it was problematic, or a Changes Required sent in error. However, those will be in the minority, and because the system is based only on the most recent, uploading some more things will push those old errors off the end of the list so they no longer count.


What if a creator doesn't want to bypass the queue?

Some creators have expressed that they appreciate having someone look over their upload before it goes live, just to make sure there's nothing wrong or that they missed. Luckily, we already have a forum specifically for that purpose: Creator Feedback. While that forum has mostly been used for the quality aspects of uploading (how's the textures, does the sim look like the person - not so much about whether the pics look like good ones to upload or if any important info's been left out) , the rules will be changed to reflect a more open and inclusive, general upload-related place for people to tell you how you're doing with an upload you want to share here. Use a post in your feedback thread to post the text you intend to use so you can check your formatting, or ask for opinions on how good your pics show off your content, rather than just about the content itself.

You will also be allowed to upload your actual custom content files there, if you like. Not for permanent hosting there, of course, but so that people can test things for you, and, using the small magnifying glass icon next to the file download link (to view the list of included content files the same way staff does in the moderation queue), help you double-check that you've got links for all the included custom content.

Pretty much any aspect of the upload process, you will be welcome to ask for help on there, and with less to do on the actual queue, moderators should have more time to do that kind of help and guidance in a much more social, relaxed setting.

Additionally, if you do mess something up a little bit on your upload, you can always edit it to fix it or add something you forgot, and we want to move away from creators being afraid to add another colour option to a set of tee shirts. :)


What happens if an upload bypasses the queue but has issues?

There are two things that can happen:

1) If the problem is minor... such as a custom content credit link is broken, creator forgot a pic but the rest are good, etc., then the upload will be left as it is in the Downloads section, and a moderator or even just a regular user can comment and let the creator know that something small was forgotten, and the creator can edit it to fix it when they have a chance. This is only for little things that do not affect the safety or integrity of the upload. MTS members will be more strongly encouraged to leave constructive criticism to help creators not only improve their creations but also their presentation - but of course, then as now, rudeness will not be tolerated.

2) If the problem is major… like stolen content, poor quality, broken files, or there are a whole bunch of otherwise minor problems that all add up to an upload that really needs some work, etc., then a moderator will send the upload back to the moderation queue so it is temporarily hidden from view, and if the problem is fixable, they’ll mark the upload Changes Required so the creator can fix it - or if the problem isn’t fixable, they’ll reject it.

Other creators will have the option to report uploads for issues (as creators will usually have a good idea of our standards - more so than the average user) so that even if a moderator doesn’t notice a problem on it immediately, it can still be brought to our attention and dealt with if necessary. Regular users will of course still have the option to report posts for other reasons (piracy, stolen content, abusive rudeness, spam, etc.).

Obviously, having a problem upload sent to the queue and set to Changes Required will temporarily change the creator’s numbers for the Queue Bypass. However, this situation (just getting one CR on one upload and then the creator subsequently fixing it and the upload getting approved), will not affect the bypass for that creator, as the creator’s still improving and willing to fix problems when they arise and should be aware of the issue in future so they don’t repeat it on the next upload. Multiple CRs or having an upload subsequently rejected after being sent back to the queue may mean the creator who had been bypassing the queue will then have subsequent uploads which do not bypass (because they no longer meet the criteria for their most recent 5 and 10 uploads), but after they’ve uploaded some more things and shown that they’ve gotten past that temporary issue, they may be eligible for the bypass again. This is why the numbers are calculated every time you submit an upload, based on recent records rather than any other way.

As such, whether or not a particular creator can bypass the queue is not displayed to downloaders as a badge or banner on the creator’s profile or on the upload. We don’t want creators to feel punished or ashamed if they need to go through the queue again temporarily - we’re here to help you learn to create and share better, not to make you feel bad… and if we have in the past, then we are truly, deeply sorry for that, and want to do better.

Our focus going forward is to help guide creators and to connect them with the people who want their content, and we feel this system is the best way to do that.


Guidelines Changes:

We are aware that some of our guidelines currently are too stringent, too focused on fiddly details, too hard to do absolutely everything just so. This is why we are reviewing all of the creator guidelines, and rewriting them. The new creator guidelines will be “just the basics” and much easier to understand, consisting of mostly the following:

Quality: We don’t want people to be able to upload crap, but we don’t want every upload to have to be perfect to get on the site. If it’s a nice thing that’s useful to someone, that’s good enough, and if it’s truly great, we have ways to highlight outstanding uploads already (which will probably also get some improvements soon).

Decent screenshots, showing the item well. There may be required ones for certain areas, and of course you can’t just upload a single tiny, dark, blurry picture taken from halfway across the lot, but we’d like to leave it up to creators a bit more how they present their uploads and remove the requirements for pictures that really should be optional extras and not absolutely required.

Basic info, such as a description, polygon counts, where the item will show up in game, what ages it’s for, how a mod works, what patch level a mod is for, correct EP requirements, credits for included or pictured custom content, credits for parts you used from someone else’s content, etc… The stuff that downloaders really want to know will still be needed.

Correct files. Kind of a no-brainer - no corrupted files, files have to be the correct working ones, etc…

No pay content. Sorry guys, but this one’s not changing - allowing pay content is a can of worms we are not willing to open for so many reasons, but mainly because we believe in free content, and believe downloaders should be able to get the required content for everything shown on MTS without having to pay for it.

We hope these simpler guidelines will be much easier to achieve and understand for creators, easier to moderate for moderators, and still provide the quality that downloaders have come to expect from MTS - while also letting downloaders have more content from here, since more good content should be approved this way!

These simpler guidelines also mean that it should be easier for good creators to achieve the queue bypass, as it should be easier to get approved, with fewer or no Changes Required before approval, and no Changes Required for fiddly little things that are easy fixes… so even if a creator has been subject to the more stringent requirements in the past, a good creator’s numbers should quickly skew in favour of queue bypass if they keep uploading.

Rubrics Changes:

If you’ve uploaded sometime this year, you’ve noticed the star system for evaluating uploads - we call this the Rubrics System as it’s meant to allow a non-binary way of evaluating matters of quality, and to show creators where they’re doing well and what areas could do with improvement.

This system is intended to help guide creators toward doing their uploads in a good way - a particular point of evaluation (for example, whether your pictures are nice and big) may get 3 stars if the way it’s done for that particular upload is sufficient - or could have gotten up to 5 stars for being done extremely well, or 1 star if done poorly.

Moderators cannot reject or Changes Required an upload which has no 1 or 2 star items marked - the system just won’t allow it. The rubrics are being tweaked along with the guidelines, so that much more of the items can be rated only 3 stars or above. This is so that newer or less experienced creators still get guidance in what areas may be good to improve, but they won’t be held to those “nice to have” but non-mandatory items.

The only rubric items that can actually get you a Reject or Changes Required are those that are mandatory. Things that are merely suggestions are left up to you, as the creator, to improve at your own pace and according to your own taste.


What else?

For now, the queue bypass and the changes to the guidelines and rubrics are it (and a LOT of work for the moderators to make happen!). However, we DO have more changes planned - things like a simplified, non-wizard uploading option (and yes, option - if you like the wizard, it won’t be going anywhere), better ways to upload pictures and organize large uploads, larger file size limit, raised picture limit, improved filtering options, an alert system, highlighting useful techniques and tutorials, and doing more to publicise MTS features, etc… And we will let you know about those as we move forward on those projects, so you can give us your feedback on those changes, too.


Your opinion matters!

We really do think this is a positive change, and a good balance of everyone’s needs (creators, downloaders, and moderators) and we really hope you will like it too. So we want to hear from you what you think about it. Do you have questions or concerns about the way things will work? Maybe there’s something we left out, explained poorly, or haven’t thought of. Please comment if you think of anything - good or bad. We are here for you, and we want you to be happy and excited about this change - and if you’re not, we want to know about it! :)



TL;DR:

Creators who have a good record of recent uploads will bypass the moderation queue
If uploads that have bypassed the queue still have problems, we can deal with that
Creator guidelines are getting way less complicated and nitpicky
More user comments and gentle moderator nudges to fix small issues
Please actually read the giant novel above, and then tell us what you think.

Inge Jones
16th Oct 2013, 10:14 PM
Just a question: You mention that a creator might temporarily have quality problems if they start doing a new type of creating. Will the "queue-jumping" criteria take into account the category of download? So a person who is uploading into a category they have no prior experience of might have their first upload queued? Or would that be too complicated?

Karen Lorraine
16th Oct 2013, 10:15 PM
Thank you HP, it all sounds really good. When is all this likely to be implemented?

The other changes sound good too :)

Honeywell
16th Oct 2013, 10:20 PM
Outstanding! I can't thank you enough for being willing to make such sweeping changes and I'm excited to see the results. :luff: I'll have to get to work to make sure I have something ready to upload.

HystericalParoxysm
16th Oct 2013, 10:25 PM
Inge - No. It does not take into account the category for... several reasons...

1) It's complicated, just from a technical standpoint - and where do you draw the lines exactly? We have some categories set up already just for the downloads section obviously, but... if you make a clothing recolour, are you qualified to do clothing meshes? If you make careers, are you also qualified to do majors? If you do TS2 lots are you qualified to do TS3 ones?

2) For the most part, I think the drive of a good creator is to create well - as lee put it in our discussion, that's their work ethic, and someone who makes consistently good things in one area usually has at least some self-evaluation skills... so if they branch out and initially aren't excelling, they either don't upload the lackluster thing, or they polish it up till it's pretty.

3) By trying to look at recent uploads, if someone does branch out to something new and isn't doing great at first, we can still address that either with just some constructive criticism/suggested changes or putting the upload manually in the queue, depending on whether it's little stuff or big stuff. The creator can then either fix their initial hiccups and likely continue on the "queue-jumping" without it really affecting their stats enough to matter, or if their problems were bigger and they got several CRs and a rejection or something on their first meshing attempts or their first lots or whatever, they upload some more things that are fine, the older problematic things fall off the end of the recent list, and they go back to bypassing the queue if they're doing better.

karen lorraine - I'm so glad you like it! We are really hoping to implement by the end of next month. There's not a ton of coding that it requires that isn't already done (we actually have been keeping stats on approves/rejects/CRs for years, just have to crunch the numbers at the time someone uploads), so it's mainly a matter of the guidelines and rubrics. We -really- don't want to delay it so it may mean some late nights (for me, at least!) but we don't want this to take forever like some projects have in the past. It's important, so we want to do it well, but not take too long too. :)

Honeywell - Yaaay, really happy you like it too! :D

Nysha
16th Oct 2013, 10:29 PM
If you make careers, are you also qualified to do majors?NOOOOO nooo ahahahaa noooo my only featured upload is majors and you should SEE how broken my careers are.

Just sayin'. Back to your regularly scheduled on-topicness now.

BlakeS5678
16th Oct 2013, 10:44 PM
"Creators who have a good record of recent uploads will bypass the moderation queue"

Is that an alternative requirement to fill? Or is that saying that the queue bypass will be effective immediately for those good creators that fulfill the other requirements? I'll be honest, I'm dying to use the queue bypass, there's lots of things I plan on uploading and this would be a great incentive to do so.

Edit: I love all of the changes by the way

Inge Jones
16th Oct 2013, 10:46 PM
Blake, you won't qualify yet cos you have to have at least 10 uploads first.

BlakeS5678
16th Oct 2013, 10:49 PM
Blake, you won't qualify yet cos you have to have at least 10 uploads first.

Lol, I know. I think I'm putting the carriage before the horse here.

HystericalParoxysm
16th Oct 2013, 10:50 PM
Blake - It will be effective immediately as long as you meet the criteria, and as long as your most recent uploads have been since we've been keeping a record of uploads - so, uh, a long-ass time... I'd have to check how long, but I'd guess 4+ years at least. There will be at least several hundred creators who would qualify to bypass the queue immediately when the system goes live. ETA: 464 creators would qualify, with the stats as they are right now.

BlakeS5678
16th Oct 2013, 10:52 PM
Ah, I see. Thank you for clarifying, HP. :)

Volvenom
16th Oct 2013, 10:53 PM
3. Out of your last 5 attempts to upload to MTS, how many of those things required a moderator to ask for changes more than once? This should be no more than 1.


Ha Awesome! I see I've being punished for my terrible sense of humor :lol:

thesammy58
16th Oct 2013, 10:57 PM
I love how when I'm uploading a mod, there are detailed steps and paragraphs telling you what to do and how to do it, like someone is right there with me. It feels friendly to me.
What I don't like, and this goes for any site, is how irritating the moderation can get. Sometimes, I may have to wait nearly a week just to have a moderator say I need to add one little detail. Then it takes me 5 minutes to build upon the description, submit my mod again, and wait another few days.

joandsarah77
16th Oct 2013, 11:09 PM
I have read through the giant novel above and like it. :)

I've often thought there should be more community input into uploads rather then just a group of mods or in QBUILDERZ case alone! Sitting there going through the upload queue. So I think this is step in the right direction.

Now one concern, is this automated or do we have to remember if we were asked for changes? What if changes required have been on picture taking only? Or did that say that doesn't count towards changes required. I did read it all, it's just a lot to take in.

I hope that star system will be looked at with a sharp eye because I for one am not overly happy with it, particularly on the effort rating.

I think these will be good changes for the site and hopefully will foster more of a community spirit rather then a us and them attitude which i feel the upload process has now.

whoden
16th Oct 2013, 11:10 PM
I think what I'm gonna do to test the changes is dust off one of my old lots that got rejected before, probably The Old Water Treatment Plant (an urban decay/apocalypse inspired municipal utility building), give it a few tweaks (I recently upgraded to a new OS and haven't reinstalled 99.999...% of the CC I had before), and see what happens this time.

Nysha
16th Oct 2013, 11:24 PM
At the moment, whoden, you won't qualify for queue bypass; so your upload will go into the queue and be moderated as has been usual up 'til now. I don't think you've uploaded anything since we introduced the rubrics system, though, so it'll be moderation of a very different kind than what you're used to :p .

spladoum
16th Oct 2013, 11:24 PM
What I don't like, and this goes for any site, is how irritating the moderation can get. Sometimes, I may have to wait nearly a week just to have a moderator say I need to add one little detail. Then it takes me 5 minutes to build upon the description, submit my mod again, and wait another few days.
This.

It doesn't always happen to me--I've been fortunate enough to have work on-site within 12 hours of submission. But I've also had uploads that sat in queue for days with maybe 3 views, which sometimes makes me think that people start to grade it, start watching cat videos on Youtube, and completely forget about it.

I've moderated and judged work for public upload on other sites before, and I know what a tedious and thankless task it can be, so I'm not trying to be unkind here. Just, y'know ... puzzled.

HystericalParoxysm
16th Oct 2013, 11:28 PM
joandsarah777 - Thank you for reading the novel! I'm so sorry I'm that long-winded. :)

It's all automated. I could tell you whether, if you uploaded right now (were the system live now), if you'd bypass the queue (you would, btw). One of the things we want to do... somewhere... is make it so the creator can see their own numbers and have it tell them whether their next upload will be up instantly or not. But because it is automated, it can't differentiate between a CR for big stuff and a CR for small stuff, or one for something twiddly and silly like picking a thumbnail that probably didn't need to be a CR in the first place.

That's why in future, small stuff that's the only thing wrong won't be CR'd for at all. If it's gone through the queue, we can just put a little, "Hey, can ya fix this little thing?" message in the approval PM. And if it bypassed the queue and it's something small, it'd just be a moderator comment on the thread. And a lot of nitpicky things that may have been CR'd/rejected for in the past would not be going forward with the new guidelines and way of handling things, so any problematic CRs/rejects caused by us wearing our pants too tight should fall off the list fairly quickly as long as someone keeps uploading and doing a pretty good job at it.

Some of the ratings on the star system definitely need work, you're right about that, and that's part of the changes, for sure. The effort one... probably shouldn't be in there at all, tbh, as if you've put the effort in, it should show in the upload.

joandsarah77
16th Oct 2013, 11:30 PM
But I've also had uploads that sat in queue for days with maybe 3 views, which sometimes makes me think that people start to grade it, start watching cat videos on Youtube, and completely forget about it.

I've moderated and judged work for public upload on other sites before, and I know what a tedious and thankless task it can be, so I'm not trying to be unkind here. Just, y'know ... puzzled.

Hang on, you can see how many views your upload has had in the queue?! Where is that shown? I had no idea.

Thanks HP :)
Yeah you don't want your your pants too tight or we might think we're in a 1970's disco. http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e397/joandsarah77/1050849256.gif (http://s43.photobucket.com/user/joandsarah77/media/1050849256.gif.html)

whoden
16th Oct 2013, 11:35 PM
At the moment, whoden, you won't qualify for queue bypass; so your upload will go into the queue and be moderated as has been usual up 'til now. I don't think you've uploaded anything since we introduced the rubrics system, though, so it'll be moderation of a very different kind than what you're used to :p .

Yeah, I didn't think I'd qualify for the bypass, but the changed guidelines should should give me a better chance of getting it approved this time.

Speaking of... When will the changes be rolled out?

HystericalParoxysm
16th Oct 2013, 11:46 PM
whoden - We are hoping to have it done by the end of next month.

farfalle
16th Oct 2013, 11:56 PM
there's really nothing i can say that other people haven't already, but i'll throw in for emphasis: the minutiae of uploading are ridoooonkkkk.

i've never had an issue with getting an upload through due to quality, so my beef isn't and has never been over quality control, but sweet baby j-dawg, the level of exhaustive checking and rechecking all the little details makes getting a download kicked back that much more exasperating. my first download--when i was still struggling with an uploading system that was so muddled and arcane i had to consult a haruspex--got kicked back for not listing the patch correctly in the patch level box even though i had listed the patch correctly in the text itself. "ok," i said, "that's fair, patches are important." then a couple houses later, i had one get kicked back because the queue moderator thought i had a window facing the wrong way even though it wasn't facing the wrong way--so i had an additional 3 day wait on the upload because explaining "yo, that's the right orientation, you cray" and taking an additional picture to prove it meant i had to do extra work for no reason and my upload got knocked to the back of the queue. then, a little bit later, i had another house kicked back because of some fuzzy (but not incorrect) wording--another problem that wasn't really a problem tacking on another 2-3 days' wait. the last time i got a download kicked back (over a picture being maybe 80px too small on the height, while the width was way over minimum (wooooo cropping widescreen pictures)) i didn't even bother resubmitting. i just packed my bags and jumped over to tumblr, where i can upload whatever size pictures i want and don't have to care about filling in the exact box in the exact place with the exact information, or moderators who end up wasting a ton of time when they make mistakes. i want to post a house? bam, i post a house. no giant hour-long affair followed by 2-4 days of waiting. i have my own process, my own formatting, i dot the i's and cross the t's that make the most sense to me, and the quality of my posts don't suffer for it. all the necessary information and pictures are there, just like they would be on MTS.

also, can we rap a bit about this rubric stuff? i get that this is totally in the name of transparency in response to disgruntled creators slamming MTS over upload standards. but real talk: assigning totally arbitrary values based on subjective opinion without backing it with real concrit is not helping anything. it's actually making it worse. i submitted 5 houses under the rubric system, and none of them were judged on the same criteria, received the same level of feedback, or even had the same point total (http://media.tumblr.com/865d6eede28870490a515eb7ef91c009/tumblr_inline_mlrrknq7fD1qz4rgp.jpg). (welcome back to MTS, where everything is made up and the points don't matter!) it made the entire process seem more biased than it's ever been. where there's no consistency or sense of context, there can't ever be a sense of impartial judgment, and without a sense of impartial judgment, a system is worse than useless.

but here's the thing: i love MTS. and i would love to start uploading on MTS again, because i enjoy the sense of contributing to the community, but frankly, It's Just Not That Fun. sharing should be the easiest part of creating, and yet it somehow becomes the most laborious as soon as it's time to upload here. there's no real satisfaction in the process--just a loud, resounding, "jesus, finally," followed by never wanting to deal with it again.

there have been some great ideas in the thread, and i'm glad to see that apparently there are some changes coming down the chute! i'll keep my eyes peeled, and maybe throw down some houses here in the future. god knows i've got a backlog of like 30 of them now.

edit: ofc i spend like 2000 hours typing my post up and totally miss reading stuff that is relevant to everything in my post

Sparklypotato
17th Oct 2013, 12:27 AM
I only have one problem with the queue bypass thing- what if my previous Changes Required was mostly for screenshot problems/issues with not properly linking something on a description, not actual issues with the upload? If they were not upload quality issues, I don't think it's fair to hold it against a person. I had terrible trouble getting my screenshots just right. Sadly I don't have enough uploads to get the bypass anyway- didn't upload here for a long time due to problems with the way the moderation/queue worked.

joandsarah77
17th Oct 2013, 1:04 AM
I think HP is saying screenshot and other minor problems don't count. Any time I've had a changes required pm it's always been to do with screenshot angle and distance, as I'm not the best photo taker and can't work out Gimp very much at all. I guess if people are submitting thumbnails they took in the dark it would be, as that is a a larger problem.

Just adding: Can someone tell me where I look to see how many views my item has had in the queue?

heaven
17th Oct 2013, 1:20 AM
Previous Changes Required will factor in to the initial assesment/status of each creator. The system only looks at the numbers, not the reasoning behind this CR or that rejection. Like HP said, there will be some exceptions to the numbers: if someone requested an upload rejected because they didn't have time to fix it or decided to combine sets, the system just sees a rejection. The good news about that though is, as you upload new items and they pass, the will replace the old in the data since it is only factoring in the previous X amount of data instead of all uploads ever. So with each acceptance you receive, those rejections or multiple CR uploads will eventually start falling off. Your numbers are dynamic and will change with each upload. Combined with the less stringent guidelines, CRs for just fiddly pictures should no longer be an issue and any multiple Changes Required you received in the past for that should easily be pushed out of the reviewed data as you start uploading again.

Just adding: Can someone tell me where I look to see how many views my item has had in the queue?

If you go to User Tools up in the right hand corner and select User Control Panel, you can see your subscribed threads. When you have an upload in the queue, it should show up there and will have a column for replies and another for views. It will be in a section above your normal subscribed threads as partial uploads though I'm not 100% on the wording exactly. All uploads should automatically be added to your subscribed threads I believe.

Nysha
17th Oct 2013, 1:26 AM
The number of CRs per upload will make a big difference, too. When an upload has something fairly minor which needs changing - a missing pic, forgotten credit or polycount, corrupted file etc. - usually that only takes one CR to get fixed. Getting one CR won't take you off bypass, if you're already on it, nor will it delay you getting into bypass if you're not. But where a single upload gets several CRs before it can be approved, that usually - with a few notable exceptions - means that the problems are more significant and more about the quality of the upload, or that the creator is really struggling to understand the guidelines and needs some more explanation and guidance. So it is a rough way of distinguishing, yes, but it's not like YOU MUST BE PERFECT or anything.

joandsarah77
17th Oct 2013, 1:33 AM
Thanks heaven, I'll have to look harder next time I have an upload as I looked last time in my subscribed threads and didn't see where the look count was- although by the time this lot is done the new system might be in place and I won't have to wait. :D

Consort
17th Oct 2013, 2:03 AM
I see a quality vs. quantity problem with the new queue-bypass rules.

Some of my scirptmods took months to develop and test and I have to babysit them for new patches, glitches, user suggestions, user questions etc.
I will probably never get to 10.

If I was into designing - for example - starter homes instead, I might think "challenge accepted!"
Instead of uploading my favorite 2 designs (each with 3 flavors) I might feel tempted to get up to 10.
Once I get "achievement unlocked" I can keep uploading!.. and starter homes is what I'm good at, so upload 11 to 27 will be mostly starter homes
I do like starter homes btw... I'm using several ones i have downloaded from here. I do not mind more starter homes.

I believe the new rules will not change MTS to the better. We will get more of what we already have, what's exciting and new will go to sites without any upload queue like Simlogical.

CatOfEvilGenius
17th Oct 2013, 2:05 AM
Thank you, HP, for that detailed description of the planned changes. Very helpful info!

whether or not a particular creator can bypass the queue is not displayed to downloaders

Good to hear! Something I have really loved about MTS is how collegial it is. Creators talk to each other, help each other out in the forums, and tend not to be snooty and stuck up prima donnas. At least that's been my experience with the people I've interacted with. I'm just fine with star and trophy badges, but a badge that basically says "I can jump the queue, bow before me, stinky queueing multitude" would be offputting for me. ;)

Still have real misgivings about queue jumping, but I do understand the points in favor people have raised, and the valid concerns people have with moderation. I hope the new system works out well, creators are happier, mods have less work, and anyone who gets a CR for a queue jumped upload deals with it maturely and graciously.

Very reassured to hear that quality standards are not going away, just being enforced somewhat differently. That was my biggest worry with queue jumping. I do actually trust dedicated creators to consistently do their best, for the love of creating, but we're all human and can inadvertantly mess something up once in a while.

Very glad to read about more automation, and more objective and simplified rubrics. Sounds like a win-win for mods and creators. As HP pointed out, whether a mod loves or hates you should have less influence now. Again, I trust the mods to try to be objective, but we're all human and perfect impartiality and complete consistency in rule application is difficult for us. Anything that makes that easier is a good thing.

Lunararc
17th Oct 2013, 2:06 AM
Omg, i'm really proud of all MTS staff for working so hard to improve this great community ( It's already stunning ) and all the changes sound great thanks guys ^_^

leefish
17th Oct 2013, 2:07 AM
@consort - this is how I visualise it. Right now our goal is to get people bypassing the queue. This will mean a smaller queue. As the guidelines are already being made less stringent (nitpicky) then a well made well presented upload will breeze through the queue and onto the site and add to your "credits". Delay will be minimal.

orangemittens
17th Oct 2013, 2:37 AM
3. Out of your last 5 attempts to upload to MTS, how many of those things required a moderator to ask for changes more than once? This should be no more than 1.This really does nothing for all the people you've already screwed with the queue as it was given that it seemed almost a point of pride for the mods to ding people on something so no one got through the queue without some silly change or another. And I'm not seeing anything which addresses the points that I made and many other creators mentioned also. Namely that rules are made up and applied even before being entered into the Guidelines and that the rules are applied in an uneven way.

As buggybooz said, " but the way things are being moderated is the root of the problem".

Almost every creator is going to fail your number 3. if this isn't changed. There is nothing here which is going to help people get out of the cycle of arbitrary unfairness the queue has as it currently is until there is some change with the moderators themselves. Good luck with it though :)

Evairance
17th Oct 2013, 2:48 AM
Something I wish we had we had was a sort of save option when in the process of uploading. Sometimes I get far into process and have to get off the computer for something. It would be nice if my creation in the works was still there.
The upload "grading" is sometimes frustrating. I've had multiple moderators on one project before, all of which who have their opinions on what to fix. Instead of getting through in one day like I should have with the first fixes, it takes several to get it just perfect, ya know?
I also agree with what many others have said, sometimes great uploads get rejected.

sionelle
17th Oct 2013, 2:54 AM
Almost every creator is going to fail your number 3. if this isn't changed.

Upthread, HP noted that 464 creators would qualify for the queue bypass with the stats as they are right now. That doesn't seem to indicate that almost everyone is going to fail that criterion. Past experience, even with a queue that most people seem to think was overly strict and arbitrary, hasn't led to that result, so there's no reason to think a future, less stringent queue would do so.

I had hesitated posting before because my views were pretty well out of line with the majority (I liked the queue fine the way it was, and I am truly perplexed about why people care if it takes several days.) But I think the new proposal is a great compromise between making things easier but not letting MTS turn into a complete free-for-all. Thanks, mods!

orangemittens
17th Oct 2013, 3:06 AM
Upthread, HP noted that 464 creators would qualify for the queue bypass with the stats as they are right now. That doesn't seem to indicate that almost everyone is going to fail that criterion. Past experience, even with a queue that most people seem to think was overly strict and arbitrary, hasn't led to that result, so there's no reason to think a future, less stringent queue would do so.

I had hesitated posting before because my views were pretty well out of line with the majority (I liked the queue fine the way it was, and I am truly perplexed about why people care if it takes several days.) But I think the new proposal is a great compromise between making things easier but not letting MTS turn into a complete free-for-all. Thanks, mods!You quoted the wrong part of my post. The relevant part to that quote is this: This really does nothing for all the people you've already screwed with the queue as it was. I'm also not seeing anything that says the little report card filled out by a mod who doesn't know how to create the item the creator uploaded is dispensed with either. I'll say it again...the site wants gifts of free uploads. The way to get that from the best creators is to start by treating people with a little consideration and fairness...respect would be nice too.

Honeywell
17th Oct 2013, 3:16 AM
I would hope that if MTS is turning over a new leaf so to speak they would right any wrongs that they're aware of before the system goes live! Or what's the point?

sionelle
17th Oct 2013, 3:35 AM
You quoted the wrong part of my post. The relevant part to that quote is this: This really does nothing for all the people you've already screwed with the queue as it was. I'm also not seeing anything that says the little report card filled out by a mod who doesn't know how to create the item the creator uploaded is dispensed with either. I'll say it again...the site wants gifts of free uploads. The way to get that from the best creators is to start by treating people with a little consideration and fairness...respect would be nice too.

Well obviously I think I quoted the correct part, because my premise is that your argument doesn't hold water. Or else I am misunderstanding it. You seem to be saying that a lack of consideration, fairness and respect has resulted in a system where people routinely, repeatedly fail the upload process or require multiple CRs, so that they will be highly unlikely to pass criterion 3 in the new system. I am arguing that the stats show otherwise. So I suppose I could have quoted your whole post. My response would have been the same.

At any rate, your opinion is your opinion and mine is mine, and probably the twain shall never meet on this. Given that the whole system is changing, I hope people will at least give it a try to see if it addresses their concerns,

CatOfEvilGenius
17th Oct 2013, 3:39 AM
This really does nothing for all the people you've already screwed with the queue as it was. I'm also not seeing anything that says the little report card filled out by a mod who doesn't know how to create the item the creator uploaded is dispensed with either.

It would of course be ideal if any and all past mistaken moderation was undone, but is this a realistically practical thing to wish for? It sounds to me like the changes to moderation guidelines and the constantly updated CR counter will help deal with the points you and others have raised, not immediately, true, but in the near future. It doesn't fix the past, no, but five uploads from now, the past won't affect your queue jump status.

I do not know how you have been treated personally. I can only draw on my past experience with mods. I've had CRs, some I didn't always see the need for. I've had some wait times I found frustrating. None of it seemed like deliberate disrespect to me. I grant that I mostly upload clothes, and it seems like the mods in that queue are familiar with creating clothes. Your experience may well have been different from mine, and maybe things changed a lot while I've been away for a year or so. I understand people are frustrated, there are some longstanding issues that need to be addressed and fixed, but hesitate to attribute this to disrespect for creators. Seems more like an issue with lots of rules, communication skills, different expectations of mods and creators, etc., rather than disrespect. The mods here were / are creators themselves, and I'm sure they understand there'd be no MTS without creators. The planned changes, the discussion in this thread right now, acknowledgement of problems by site staff, HP's comments, that all looks like respect and consideration to me, although I understand people may wish this had happened sooner. Not trying to invalidate your experience nor feelings, and I am sad and sympathetic if you experienced rudeness. Just think we creators are, for the most part, most of the time, valued and respected here, and moderation issues stem from other causes.

orangemittens
17th Oct 2013, 3:47 AM
Well obviously I think I quoted the correct part, because my premise is that your argument doesn't hold water. Or else I am misunderstanding it. You seem to be saying that a lack of consideration, fairness and respect has resulted in a system where people routinely, repeatedly fail the upload process or require multiple CRs, so that they will be highly unlikely to pass criterion 3 in the new system. I am arguing that the stats show otherwise. So I suppose I could have quoted your whole post. My response would have been the same.

At any rate, your opinion is your opinion and mine is mine, and probably the twain shall never meet on this. Given that the whole system is changing, I hope people will at least give it a try to see if it addresses their concerns,Yes...you are misunderstanding. I am saying that this site routinely adds rules and then applies them retroactively which leads to people getting CR's based on rules that aren't in the guidelines. I've had this happen several times myself and others have posted saying they've had the same experience. I am also saying that the existing rules are applied unevenly so that people who use existing upload pages as an example of how to do things are then told they can't do things how some other creator has done them because it's against the rules. I know this is true because I've had it happen myself. The stats don't show all the people like me and others who have gotten screwed by the old system so your argument isn't addressing my point :) Sorry if I didn't state my position clearly enough for it to make sense to you.

The mods here were / are creators themselves, and I'm sure they understand there'd be no MTS without creators. On the contrary I think this site originally arose because of tool makers and people who taught how to make things. The tool makers are either gone from the community or moved to other sites and the teachers have largely been made to know their contribution means very little at this site. So what's left is a downloads site. You cannot have downloads without uploads. You can't have uploads without uploaders. You aren't going to have professional level uploaders how this site seems to want if you make people submit to little badges and report cards just to get stuff posted here...this is especially true given all the alternative places to upload. Jes sayin.

sionelle
17th Oct 2013, 3:56 AM
Yes...you are misunderstanding. I am saying that this site routinely adds rules and then applies them retroactively which leads to people getting CR's based on rules that aren't in the guidelines. I've had this happen several times myself and others have posted saying they've had the same experience. I am also saying that the existing rules are applied unevenly so that people who use existing upload pages as an example of how to do things are then told they can't do things how some other creator has done them because it's against the rules. I know this is true because I've had it happen myself. The stats don't show all the people like me and others who have gotten screwed by the old system so your argument isn't addressing my point :) Sorry if I didn't state my position clearly enough for it to make sense to you.

Well now I am really confused, because that seems to be pretty much what I thought you were saying before, and is pretty much what I was disagreeing with. Maybe I am the one who is not being clear. Anyway, like Cat said, I can't claim to understand what your experiences have been, I can only tell you that they seem to have been very different than mine, and that I hope you will consider giving the new system a try to see if it improves upon what you experienced before.

(And rather than hijack any more of the thread trying to work out whether I really understood you or you really understood me, I think it will suffice (for me at least) to just say "meh" and let it go. :) I don't suppose it matters if the two of us understand each other, just that anyone interested in what we have to say understands us both.)

kithri
17th Oct 2013, 3:57 AM
I, for one, wish for a little tick box that says "keep me in the queue, even if I qualify for queue jumping" (or something less wordy but similar in meaning). I have never in the past and perhaps never will upload anything to the creator forum, not because anyone there is nasty, but because I so fear public humiliation that I can't upload anything for criticism there or anywhere. I've participated and given feedback (helpful feedback, I hope), but due to some horrific past experiences (not here), I get physically ill even thinking about it. The mods have always, for the most part, been kind and helpful, and the queue is somewhat private. Plus I don't want to end up on a Simsecrets postcard, either. :help:

buggybooz
17th Oct 2013, 4:16 AM
At this point all one can do is give MTS the benefit of the doubt and hope that the over zealous moderation is being dealt with behind the scenes.

464 creators sounds like a fair few but if 463 those have left simming altogether:) It's not a huge number so sending them a pm to say that things have changed would mean that everyone knows where they stand. If you don't get a pm you're still stuck in the moderating queue. If you do get a pm it could be considered almost like an invitation.

Another suggestion is for this star system which seems to also be an issue of contention. A novice creator or certain personalites may want that kind of guidance but I am sure others do not want to be judged at all (judging will always be subjective, no matter how fair the moderator or how clear the guidelines). Have a box to tick that lets people bypass knowing what star ratings they were given if they so wish and if their upload was successful. People who think it will help them can hear the feedback and those who find it upsetting or unhelpful can opt out and no damage is done.

CatOfEvilGenius
17th Oct 2013, 4:26 AM
The tool makers are either gone from the community or moved to other sites and the teachers have largely been made to know their contribution means very little at this site.

Again, I've been gone for a year, so what I say below applies to my experience in the past. When Sims 3 came out, some MTS folks were a big part of tool development for it. I followed the tool development discussions with great interest. I recall seeing new tools for Sims 2 as well, Mootilda's for example. I've made Milkshape plugins for use in Sims 2 mesh creation when I was last active here, not too long ago. Just a few days ago, someone messaged me about developing a tool to change the sort index of clothes in Body Shop. I would routinely refer to MTS tutorials when creating, and made use of the creator forums to ask questions and learn. Last time I was active, tutorials were being actively converted to wiki format. Not as many new tutorials being written now as when Sims 2 was new, but that makes sense. I have seen a few new ones, wrote a couple myself. I used to give help to new creators in the forums, back when I had way more time for Sims. I remember other creators doing so as well, fakepeeps and others. Maybe that's different now, but my recollection is of the not too distant past. Again, maybe it's very different for Sims 3 creators, I wouldn't know, I can only attest to Sims 2 and mostly Body Shop meshing and texturing.

The opportunity to learn and discuss with other creators is something I really like about MTS, at least what I remember from my previous years here. If you think teachers and tool makers are not being treated well, it may help to explain what's problematic and suggest what may be done. I think many people definitely want MTS to continue to be a place to learn, develop tools, and teach, so if there's issues there, they should be addressed.

QBUILDERZ
17th Oct 2013, 4:27 AM
You quoted the wrong part of my post. The relevant part to that quote is this: This really does nothing for all the people you've already screwed with the queue as it was. I'm also not seeing anything that says the little report card filled out by a mod who doesn't know how to create the item the creator uploaded is dispensed with either. I'll say it again...the site wants gifts of free uploads. The way to get that from the best creators is to start by treating people with a little consideration and fairness...respect would be nice too.

I understand your frustration, Orangemittens, but there isn't a way for us to go back in and try and right all of the potential wrongs.I have been duped a few times myself, and I am a mod for Pete's sake! The only way to fix it is to prevent it in the future, which is what this system aims to do. Plus, as far as I've been informed, we are going through queue rules again to get rid of the ones that aren't necessary. Also, we do respect the people who upload to this site; if there was a bad experience in your past then that is something that you need to post in CI so an admin can help fix it :)

EDIT: Lee pointed out I may have misunderstood your posts...if so, juuuust ignore me ;) I think I am gonna let the more insightful and educated mods take this one from here on out!

leefish
17th Oct 2013, 4:33 AM
Hmm, Q, I think OMs point is that she believes that there are circumstances in the past that affect the "fastpass" status of an creator. It is not clear from database extracts exactly if a moderator misunderstood what a creator was asking etc and so created a CR chain, or what if a creator had an upload that they were not willing to change? Especially for those creators who asked for it to be rejected rather than change it to meet rules guidelines that we are no longer applying?

It seems that if we are relaxing the rules then there is a potential issue with some "unfairness" seeping in. I have no idea how we can ensure this is not the case though. It is a concern for me.

orangemittens
17th Oct 2013, 4:54 AM
if there was a bad experience in your past then that is something that you need to post in CI so an admin can help fix it :)I did. A lot. I said there what a lot of people here are saying now. That was a long time ago :)...nothing changed.

Hmm, Q, I think OMs point is that she believes that there are circumstances in the past that affect the "fastpass" status of an creator. Exactly. I think it's clear from some of the people posting in this thread that there will be creators denied fastpass that should have it unless there's some way to make sure they get it. I'm not talking about me...I prolly said screw it before I got to the required number of uploads...but there are others.

If you think teachers and tool makers are not being treated well, it may help to explain what's problematic and suggest what may be done. I think many people definitely want MTS to continue to be a place to learn, develop tools, and teach, so if there's issues there, they should be addressed.I think tool makers and teachers take things the least. All of us at least have some experience at this site and have learned to deal with the snide mods. The learning people are different. This place is harsh on them and it makes me feel bad seeing how the mods are rude to people who are new. It especially makes me feel bad seeing how people whose first language isn't English get treated sometimes. But this is OT and we shouldn't talk about it. :)

joandsarah77
17th Oct 2013, 5:03 AM
This really does nothing for all the people you've already screwed with the queue

Almost every creator is going to fail your number 3. if this isn't changed. There is nothing here which is going to help people get out of the cycle of arbitrary unfairness the queue has as it currently is until there is some change with the moderators themselves. Good luck with it though :)

I disagree, you only need five uploads without a CR and since the guidelines are being made easier those should be less anyway. So that does help people who need to go through the queue. I don't believe the mods are trying to screw people over, just some had their pants a bit tight. :P As HP already said, if it was something minor you wouldn't receive a CR but just a note. One time I got a CR for not putting terrain paint under a swing. I know to do that, I just didn't notice that I hadn't. Hopefully that kind of thing will now just be be a "Psst you forgot to put terrain paint under that swing" and I would say oops and fix it. I don't mind doing that at all, what I didn't like was having to submit again and wait another 4-5 days for it to be approved because of a silly little oversight.

orangemittens
17th Oct 2013, 5:33 AM
So that does help people who need to go through the queue..Yes...but I'm talking about those of us who already have :) This new stuff does nothing for us. Sorry if how I said it wasn't clear to you.

joandsarah77
17th Oct 2013, 5:45 AM
I know what you meant and I still don't see how this new upload system with fewer CR's won't be of help. If anything I would have thought it would spur people to make better items so as to get that 5 CR free uploads (or was it one CR? Sorry short turn memory issues, I've already forgotten. :( )

orangemittens
17th Oct 2013, 5:50 AM
I know what you meant and I still don't see how this new upload system with fewer CR's won't be of help. If anything I would have thought it would spur people to make better items so as to get that 5 CR free uploads (or was it one CR? Sorry short turn memory issues, I've already forgotten. :( )I'm failing to see how it will invite people back who have been alienated by the process that led to no one wanting to upload here.

But maybe all of us don't matter and this is only for future uploaders.

If we do matter then this new thing isn't going to help at all.

The basic problem with the queue hasn't been addressed and to get beyond the queue you still have to sit up and beg for the queue mods. The issue of retroactive rules hasn't been dealt with and neither has the fact that the rules are applied unevenly.

And there is no relief for those who've uploaded in the past and yet now must face this queue again.

buggybooz
17th Oct 2013, 6:54 AM
If anything I would have thought it would spur people to make better items so as to get that 5 CR free uploads

I think there is a communication problem and a bit of a divide between what current uploaders to the site think and what potential uploaders to the site would care about.

The whole point is that if you have been through a system that leaves you absolutely not wanting to go through it again there is no way that you're going to upload 5 times in order to be free from it. The talk of getting better also applies to certain categories of creator and I don't think it is particularly revelant to what orangemittens is saying.


Edited to add:

Example: I cannot make better items than I already make because I have reached my personal potential for that and I did a while back. I am not going to get any better. That is not to say that there is no room for improvement but my limit and scope have been reached and that is the end of it. I continue to learn new things but on my own time and if I want feedback on something I know exactly where I am going to look for it.

That example can apply to alot of potential uploaders who are not looking for any kind of feedback at a moderation level. They may like the feedback once the upload is up in the comments section but that is very different. There is a very big world outside of MTS now and creating a blog or simblr and uploading on your terms has never been simpler. Bringing people into the MTS fold isn't as easy as saying "Oh look, we've changed a few rules therefore everyone is going to jump at the chance".

Unfortunate as it is, there does have to be something more than that but what that would be I haven't got a clue.

Inge Jones
17th Oct 2013, 8:03 AM
I, for one, wish for a little tick box that says "keep me in the queue, even if I qualify for queue jumping" (or something less wordy but similar in meaning). :

I think this would be a nice addition. Some people are not naturally confident but their work is fine. A moderator would simply have to click "approve" and everyone would be happy lol. I know the Creator Feedback has been mentioned, but that is a different ballgame. And as people fish for any comment to make rather than ignore their friend/community-comrade who has just asked for feedback, the person who posted because they lack queue-jumping confidence is also the person who will keep feeling they should change the upload in line with every little suggestion. It then has the same effect as over-zealous queue moderation. :rofl: .

HystericalParoxysm
17th Oct 2013, 8:11 AM
We do totally get that some of the reasons you might've been CR'd for were silly, over-nitpicky, things that were not in the guidelines and should not have been enforced, there will be people who have rejections not because of any guidelines but because they requested the upload be rejected because they discovered it had issues, etc.... Basically, yes, there will be some people for whom those numbers probably should not apply. And I don't like that it's the case either - but I don't know of a way to get around that. Do you? Because if you can think of a way that would be fair, please do suggest it - we tried figuring out what it would be and couldn't, maybe ya'll would have a better idea?


Because why we're doing it that way is thus:

The idea is to make it as automated as possible. This means not only do moderators not have to individually assess someone's "goodness" as a creator (something that may get left undone with the workload of other things to do), but it puts the decision out of their hands. We can neither arbitrarily decide that you are deserving of the queue bypass if you are not... nor can we decide you're just not ready and stick you back in the queue even if your numbers say otherwise. The bias an individual moderator might feel about you as a creator is taken out of the equation. We had discussed an "override" for individual creators, but... what an override means is that you are no longer subject to the rules everyone else is. If you were to get a tickmark in your user profile that allows you to bypass even though your numbers don't actually qualify, then that override would apply even if your numbers get worse.

Additionally, the guidelines and rubrics are changing, and the method of moderation is changing significantly, so fiddly little things that should not be CRs but just a mention in an approval message would not be CRd for going forward. And with the rubrics system, a moderator simply cannot moderate for something that isn't in the guidelines. Just doesn't work - there's not a box for it, and if it's something nice to have but not mandatory, it can be done so a moderator cannot CR or reject for it, period. The system physically will not allow you to click Changes Required or Reject if there are no items that are less than 3 stars.

I know this does not erase old CRs/rejections, but I do not see any kind of way to automate erasing certain old CRs/rejections in any kind of logical way. It would have to be subject to an individual appeals process based on individual uploads, rehashing old stuff and taking up time for moderators to review each individual case, each individual CR... Because while for some, you may have gotten CRs/rejects that shouldn't have been, the majority of CRs/rejects are for absolutely valid reasons - missing required pictures, missing info, EPs ticked wrong, broken files, etc...

Would you prefer that we just throw out all old CRs/rejects and just say anyone who has 10+ uploads can bypass the queue? I suppose that is technically possible and not a beast to code... But it would mean that there would be quite a lot of creators who have consistently problematic uploads for very much valid, non-nitpicky-fiddly reasons who would bypass, and then have their uploads need to be put into the queue and then subsequently CR'd and would lose the bypass. Rather than being able to say that there are 464 uploaders now that can get it and quite a lot more that will after one or two more uploads that will go through a much more permissive system, I think this way (the hypothetical alternate old-CRs-and-rejects-don't-count way) would mean that there would be 700-something bypassing to start with... and then probably some less as things were placed manually into the queue and then CR'd.

I guess I can see where this way might have some validity and merit, but I can't help but thinking that there would be a lot more people who would get on the bypass and then go back on queue for a while that way, vs. the number with the system we're proposing that probably should be on bypass to start with and just need a couple more things uploaded before they'd be bypassing too.

Of course, that's just off the top of my head and before coffee, so if you have an alternate suggestion, we're all ears.




orangemittens - You DO matter. We DO want you to feel comfortable and happy to come back. And your name specifically came up as someone who SHOULD be on bypass because you are a great creator, but your numbers don't qualify because of bullshit CRs/rejects. Please, please don't think we don't care about your feelings in this. We do, and it is important that creators in general are overall happy with whatever changes we make, which is why we're presenting the idea to you guys before making it live and giving you a chance to ask questions, raise concerns, and alternate suggestions on better ways to do it.

I am truly sorry about the crap you went through before. It should not have been that way. The method of moderation and the enforcing unwritten rules has already been addressed, with the rubric reasons having to match the guidelines and moderators being unable to make up rules on a whim. Things that are already in the queue when a rule is changed are not subject to that rule (though we may mention it in an approval message as an optional change at the creator's discretion). All future CRs/rejects should be for things that are truly -required-, so you should not have to "sit up and beg" for anyone (you shouldn't have had to in the first place).

If there is a better way that you think it should be done, we are totally willing to hear it. And I do very much appreciate you sharing your feelings - and your upset - because we are aware we have driven away good creators like you, and we shouldn't have. We fucked up in a lot of ways, and we want to do better and to be a place that people feel comfortable returning to. I know we can't make -everyone- happy, cannot turn back the clock... but we do want to find a way to do things that works for 99% of people... including you. :)

ETA: Also... regarding treatment of folks who are trying to learn... sometimes, yes, we have had things done harshly, too many "you didn't read the FAQ did you" type stuff, things hard to find and then scolded for not finding them, too much locking of threads that could have just been moved with a friendly note rather than a reprimand, etc... This is something that we have addressed internally, and if you see a moderator being rude to someone, PM me and I will thump them for it severely (right now the reports system doesn't let you report moderator posts - this should change when it's tweaked to allow for report types and creators to report uploads that need fixing, etc.).



farfalle - The rubrics are... very much not perfect, you are absolutely right. And they are going to be getting a pretty big overhaul as part of this. The rubrics system I think in general is a good way to evaluate different aspects of an upload, and yes, it can be subjective in some areas that are subjective. I'm not sure how to get around that entirely though, without just tossing out all the things that are not purely objective, and then I'm afraid we would get into a situation where we are hosting uploads which technically meet the guidelines (pics are okay, right files are there, they gave the lot price, etc.) but are.... to put it a bit bluntly, kind of... bad. I know we're mainly talking the creator side over here but quality absolutely matters to downloaders here and isn't something we want to abandon entirely, so we're not sure how to balance those two best sometimes. The rubrics try to do that, and I think taking a good hard look at them and removing a lot of the fiddly stuff/making it optional will help that. Do you have any ideas on how you -would- want to see, say, a lot evaluated?

FTR, I absolutely agree with... well, your entire post. It SHOULD be fun to share content, and it shouldn't be a giant chore. It has been here. We really, really want to fix that, and make it an enjoyable process.




Consort - You are right in that the bypass only applies to people who have 10+ approved uploads. However, the changes to the guidelines and method of moderation will apply to everyone - so if it meets the guidelines generally and has no major issues, it will be approved, and if there were tiny little things wrong, we'll just mention it in the approval message. Part of what makes MTS unique is that we do have moderation of uploads, and I don't think we want to get away from that entirely, but we do want to make it a -lot- easier to get your uploads on the site. The 10+ thing is for people who have proven that they do not really need a moderator looking over their shoulder before their stuff goes live, and I don't know of any way around that besides either greatly lowering the bar from 10 to 5? or something? (which I think would let too many people through whose creations have significant issues, and would put off downloaders from coming here - we don't want to alienate them either), or doing an individual manual evaluation of the general standards of each and every creator, which is a can of worms in itself, far more subjective.



kithri - Hmm. Well, though I don't personally, as a creator (not with my moderator hat on) see a need for a "send me to the queue anyway" button, you are not the only one who has requested such a thing (including at least one other moderator), and I don't think it would be -terribly- difficult to code. Your reasoning does make sense. Delphy would have a better idea of how tricky that would be to implement, but if it's not too difficult/time consuming we can probably include it somehow, if not initially then soon after.



CatOfEvilGenius - I'm really glad that you overall think it'll be a positive change. I know you'd disagreed with the concept but I'm glad that you see the reasoning in it and some merit in it. I hope we can live up to your expectations. :) ETA: We also very much want to get back to focusing on the learning process of creation... highlighting useful tutorials and techniques (especially new ones, but also maybe obscure ones people could use but don't know about), making it easier for people who are learning to get to the tutorials they need to do what they want, etc... Because MTS was designed not so much as download hosting but as a place to learn about, talk about, innovate, etc., in modding TS2. We've gotten away from that somewhat... and at least some of that is simply because the moderation queue takes up so much of our time, we don't really have the time to do the -other- stuff that we would very much like to do.



Evairance - There actually already is a "drafts" system where you can save an upload you're working on and come back to it later. However, it's not well publicised and... as dumb as I feel to admit it, I don't actually know much about how it works or how to access it. One of the things we really want to start doing is to highlight certain features that MTS has that people don't seem to know about (so many things have come up as a "I'd love to have X feature" in this thread and the Downloaders thread and it turns out we already do have that!) so I think we need to make it more prominent and show people how to use it... including me, because I don't know! :)

The other points you mentioned - inconsistent moderation and wait times are something that we very much do need to address internally, and are trying to do so as part of this major change. I am really hoping that taking a lot of the workload off of the mods' shoulders (since many uploads will not go through the queue at all, from those bypassing, moderators don't have to do anything to them unless there's something really wrong), we should be able to speed things up immensely, and cutting down the guidelines and rules to the basics should also help too. It is something that we are going to have to stay on top of, though, and perhaps we need to be able to see more of an overview regularly (how long things are waiting in the queue) to give us a kick in the ass.



... Imma go ahead and hit reply and then continue writing replies to the people I haven't yet, because if I don't I'm gonna lose this post and I will cry. ;) ETA: Still not done responding to everyone who needs a response, but I've gotta take a certain wee girlchild to the playground before she screams the house down, so I will continue this later.

Tashiketh
17th Oct 2013, 8:43 AM
I disagree, you only need five uploads without a CR and since the guidelines are being made easier those should be less anyway.

Sorry to point this out, but this statement is a little incorrect. You actually only need five uploads with 1 CR or less approved. In other words, it's not "without a CR" it's "without 2 or more CRs". Becuase stuff thats small and can be fixed quickly and easily usually only takes 1 CR. It's more the exception that takes more.

Let's say your 5 last uploads have had:

Upload #1 - 0 CRs, approved
Upload #2 - 1 CR, approved
Upload #3 - 0 CRs, approved
Upload #4 - 0 CRs, approved
Upload #5 - 1 CR, approved

You didn't get 2 or more CRs on any one of those uploads, so you would pass this check. If, however, upload #5 had *2* CRs instead of 1, then this check would fail. But it's check newest to oldests, so if upload #5 was your oldest one, then as soon as you uploaded a new one, if it got approved with 0 CRs (or even 1) then you would pass this check.

Inge Jones
17th Oct 2013, 8:49 AM
Part of what makes MTS unique is that we do have moderation of uploads, and I don't think we want to get away from that entirely

I should clarify what Consort said, since he has brought Simlogical into the discussion. My site isn't a free-for-all, so it's not somewhere people can just come and dump anything that got rejected at MTS. Only people who have been personally invited by me can upload there at all. I have about 30 contributors in total, of whom the majority already had a track record of good work. And I have a handful who I gave a upload privs to on the grounds they were simply friends of mine who wanted to have a go at creating. So I have a mixed range of ability. It's just a small personal site with very personal criteria for the content. But we *do* have some wonderful and unique work so it's worth keeping on your list of places to browse.

joandsarah77
17th Oct 2013, 8:50 AM
Well even better Delphy. :lol:

orangemittens I'm sorry to hear you have had so many troubles with your uploads I wasn't understanding that you had been jerked around. I can understand your feelings of uploading here would be quite different to mine. Personally I am excited for these changes and think it will be a positive step for the site.

HystericalParoxysm
17th Oct 2013, 8:53 AM
Inge - I meant nothing against Simlogical! :) I wasn't aware of how your site worked for uploads, and I know there's great stuff there (though I'm not much of a downloader myself lately so I don't frequent it terribly often). I was more just trying to address the fact that we do allow anyone to submit, but they have to meet certain standards that we check for, which is not something that many other sites do. We were one of/the first to do so, afaik, and it's one of the things that sets us apart from other sites, and not something we want to get rid of entirely, just make it easier on people.

Inge Jones
17th Oct 2013, 8:57 AM
HP, I know you didn't mean that but I felt I should nip in quick in case anyone else got that impression :D . Sorry for the OT deviation...

NonaMena
17th Oct 2013, 9:02 AM
These changes look great and I'm mostly satisfied with them. Orangemittens and Leefish have both explained some flaws in the system but I haven't got any idea how to alleviate those issues. I'm pretty excited to see the new upload system in action, so once it's live I think I'll upload something. I don't think I'll get into the moderation bypass as I have deleted 2 of my uploads, so I only have 9 mods uploaded right now. That's ok though. I've not yet seen the rubric in practice.

This reminds me: I was told that deleting an upload would not reduce my thanks/downloads but it actually did, not sure if that's an issue or whatever. I didn't really care that much. Probably should have reported it then but numbers are not the reason I upload things so I just didn't bother.

Nysha
17th Oct 2013, 10:03 AM
I'm not sure if this has been answered before because I cba to read everything right now, but:
Something I wish we had we had was a sort of save option when in the process of uploading. Sometimes I get far into process and have to get off the computer for something. It would be nice if my creation in the works was still there. We have this feature. Click the 'Save' button at the bottom of an upload wizard page. That saves your partial upload into the top of your User Control Panel page, where you can access it and finish it up. :)

Klaartje
17th Oct 2013, 10:21 AM
I'm very excited about these changes and I sure think they will make this place even better :) I think the criteria mentioned for the fasttrack uploading are solid. They are objective, which is a big plus, and taking them together means that a creator has a proven track record of keeping to guidelines, without judging them on number of downloads/popularity. I really hope that the Creator Feedback Forum will become the place that you envision it now. But I guess the only way is to find out what happens when these changes roll into place! The same goes for the comments by downloaders/moderators after uploading. Although I do think that creators who meet the criteria for fasttracking the queue very likely will feel the responsibility to keep track of any comments, I wonder what the response of the community will be. Will they actually start to read descriptions and provide useful feedback? Again, this is probably something that we will just have to wait and see.
Buggybooz and orangemittens, I really appreciate that you are willing to share your story here, it really shows that you still care about the community. I just wonder what it is that will make creators like you come back to MTS as a creator. I can understand that you don't want to go through the queue a couple of times, just to meet the criteria. I wonder how many of you there actually are. I'm using the general you here, for creators who felt disheartened by MTS moderation but might still like to come back and give MTS a second chance. If it's only a handful, it might be an idea to consider having them appeal for fasttracking? I don't know how far the archives go back, and if this is in anyway possible at all, but if it would be fairly easy for a mod/admin to see whether CR were in fact nitpicking, and/or would meet the new guidelines. It's just an idea, I can see a lot of flaws with it, with the first one being possible subjectivity/favouritism...
As for the creator guidelines: you've said that you will be rewriting these. When this happens, will the rubrics be posted anywhere on MTS as well? Two of the houses I have uploaded here are scored with a different sheet and I was wondering why this happened. It's a little off-topic, sorry, but publishing the moderation sheet might make things a little more transparent?
Whoops, I went on a bit longer then intended, most important thing is that I'm very exicted about the changes and the things I mentioned are just small details ;)

whoden
17th Oct 2013, 10:26 AM
There were some lots I submitted that I'd like to go back and look at the CRs again. Is there a way that I can do that?

HystericalParoxysm
17th Oct 2013, 10:34 AM
Klaartje68 - The way the rubrics work is that they're set to N/A until the moderator ticks that particular item. So it's possible that particular things weren't ticked for one upload, that were for another, if the moderator who reviewed your houses didn't think something applied or just missed some of the rubric items. It's a little.... weird that way, but hopefully with the streamlined and simplified rubrics, it should be a lot more consistent. I'm pretty sure we did plan on making the rubrics public eventually and transparency is something that I, at least, am really big on, so we can probably make the full rubric texts and stuff public, sure. I don't think that would even be that hard for us to do, tbh - the rubric texts and stuff are all on threads in a particular forum, so we could probably just move that forum out of moderators only and under Site Issues, editable only to moderators but viewable to everyone. The rubric reasons SHOULD match the guidelines perfectly, with nothing on one that isn't on the other, so I see no harm in showing them to you guys so you can point out any errors or things we can do better. :)

whoden - The CRs, I don't think we keep super detailed records on, just that you had one, and who gave it to you. We do have full records of accepts/rejects, so if an upload was CR'd and subsequently rejected, I can get you that (I actually went and looked at that house you mentioned that you wanted to try re-uploading and all the pics and text are still saved, really cool concept you have there - reminds me of some of the cool custom houses I saw for Fallout 3). Just let me know if there's any of those you want to see and I can PM you the full details of what we have on record.

buggybooz - It's not even that many people will necessarily need to make "better" items to get on the bypass (certainly not folks at your level of creating), just that they'll need to continue uploading at their already high standard, and we won't be nitpicky about stuff that's a matter of personal taste, presentation, etc., and as long as the quality is good and the upload is basically fine from a technical perspective, it gets approved. Stuff that would have previously got stuck in the queue because of stupid twiddly things can just be approved without a major delay. So if there are people like you or Orangemittens who have had issues with uploading not so much because of any problems with your uploads but because we had too many rules that were enforced poorly, you would no longer have those problems if you started uploading again, and your numbers would soon reflect that and you'd be bypassing the queue.

You're right though, one change is not enough to bring back everyone we may have driven away with the way we were doing things before. There are some that will probably never return. But this is also not the only change we're trying to make for the better, and I hope that in time, people who had written us off might give us another chance when they see what we are trying to do with -many- improvements to the site (I listed some of them at the end of my novel-length post). We are never going to be able to be everything to everyone, but I really hope that in time, with this change and others, and with the valuable feedback given by you and other creators, downloaders, etc., that we can make some serious improvements in a lot of areas and really show some big, positive changes in the right direction. It's going to take some time, longer than we'd like as none of us can devote as much time to this as we wish we could, but... it is under way, and it is important to us on a lot of levels (you have no idea how sad it made me to realize I would rather not upload here -myself- anymore the way things had been going... and this site has very literally changed my life) and we want to see it through.

missyhissy
17th Oct 2013, 10:35 AM
I like the sound of these changes, you guys have certainly put a lot of thought into them! I've been polishing up a lot of my careers lately anyway (and learning some new stuff), so once the new system goes live, I look forward to uploading them here too :bunny:
Since the system will only check the last 5 uploads for the number of CRs, I can see that any with 2 or more would quickly bump off the list once a few more uploads have been made. It will also give people who've had 2 or more CRs a chance to see how the moderation has improved, before qualifying for the queue jumping. That's just my two cents worth :)
Overall, very excited about the changes you're making! :D

CatOfEvilGenius
17th Oct 2013, 10:46 AM
Buggybooz and orangemittens, I really appreciate that you are willing to share your story here, it really shows that you still care about the community.

I second this, very much. Although what you went through was so unpleasant, and discussing it is probably far from fun, it is a service to the community to bring up issues and try to resolve them, so thank you. Without pressuring those who have left in any way, let me say that it matters to me personally whether folks stay or go. MTS is a better, more pleasant place when there are more folks actively creating, teaching, developing tools, helping others, etc. Smaller, private sites have their charms, their pros and cons, and I do visit some, but I think something really is lost if, for example, someone who answered new creator questions in the MTS forums leaves. Those are my selfish reasons, but it also just makes me sad if there are dramas or folks get hurt. I don't want that for anyone, especially helpful and giving folks.

HP - Thanks for your replies to folks, for explaining things in such detail. Very helpful for me. I won't presume to speak for those who have had bad experiences, but I think it is the right thing to do to address their feelings, say when something wrong happened that it was wrong, and have a dialogue. Probably not great fun either, but the right thing. I don't envy you your task at all, but glad you do what you do.

Inge Jones
17th Oct 2013, 10:51 AM
Smaller, private sites have their charms, their pros and cons, and I do visit some, but I think something really is lost if, for example, someone who answered new creator questions in the MTS forums leaves.

Small site owners and contributors still recognise MTS value as an information and learning resource, no matter what, and most of us are still around to help out when we can.

HystericalParoxysm
17th Oct 2013, 10:56 AM
CatOfEvilGenius - *hugs* Well... thank you, too. It's not an easy task, but I think it's important to be able to say "Hey, we fucked some of this up real bad, we want to fix it, and we are really, really sorry." And... not to say that generally positive and cheery folks like yourself do not give valuable input, of course, but in some ways, it's the people who have had bad experiences whose input is most needed. We need a little bit of yelling at, for people who we've upset to tell us what we could have done better. It gives us a chance to... not fix it, because we have no time machine, but at least to make changes so that it won't happen again. I can't expect someone who's been put off by things to come back, but them offering their experiences and feelings is really useful to us. As long as folks are willing to remain courteous (as they have been), I appreciate them taking the time to tell us how wrong we've been. I -know- we've been wrong, and I desperately want to fix it, and can come up with ideas for how to do so, but if it doesn't actually help things in the long run, it's just pissing into the wind. :)

nonamena - Actually, it looks at the approval -record-, not the number on site, so you would qualify to bypass the queue despite only currently having 9. Also if you can remember where you were told that about the downloads, I can make sure to set whoever said that straight, because deletions do just... delete, and whoever told you that was mistaken. But if you ask a moderator to archive an upload instead (which I don't think is a thing we've publicised that we can do for you), it does retain your counts for you, so ya know in future. :)

NonaMena
17th Oct 2013, 11:14 AM
nonamena - Actually, it looks at the approval -record-, not the number on site, so you would qualify to bypass the queue despite only currently having 9. Also if you can remember where you were told that about the downloads, I can make sure to set whoever said that straight, because deletions do just... delete, and whoever told you that was mistaken. But if you ask a moderator to archive an upload instead (which I don't think is a thing we've publicised that we can do for you), it does retain your counts for you, so ya know in future. :)

Thanks for the info, HP :) I went back to the thread in the Creator Issues forum ( http://modthesims.info/showthread.php?t=479189 ), and it turns out I recalled it wrong. My old mod was archived and not deleted. Now I have no proof either way that I lost some thanks/downloads, though I'm quite certain I did. If you want we can play around with archiving one of my mods (if it's reversible), and see if that changes the count or something. But yeah, still not such a big deal to me.

HystericalParoxysm
17th Oct 2013, 11:18 AM
nonamena - It is reversible, in that I can get it back from there, but I'd rather just tinker with one of my own so I don't mess anything on yours up. I can also ask Delphy to double-check and make sure archived stuff retains the download/thanks count, but I'm pretty sure it -should- already as I know thanks can apply not only to download threads, but also FAQs, tutorials, and news articles and it does count those. It's possible it's bugged or doesn't work as intended. Will check it. :)

joandsarah77
17th Oct 2013, 11:22 AM
It would be good if features could be made clearer, including that moderators can hide your upload if it needs fixing. That you don't need to panic and hit delete ahmm. I very nearly deleted all my downloads a few months back due to having to fix them and it was only after I had deleted one that I even thought to ask if hiding them was possible. I'm very glad I only deleted one. I also learned that if you re-upload with the same exact name, spacings, capitals and all that it keeps your download count, but I only know that as I was told about it. Otherwise I would have probably had 2 files on a number of my uploads simply due to not knowing how that worked.

Inge Jones
17th Oct 2013, 12:13 PM
Further to josndsarah's comment:

Is it possible to add a feature so a thread owner can temporarily toggle-hide their own thread from everyone except themselves? That would be more instant and less confusing than having a thread with the download suddenly missing - and less work for the creator than having to edit their post to explain why the file is missing.

NonaMena
17th Oct 2013, 12:50 PM
nonamena - It is reversible, in that I can get it back from there, but I'd rather just tinker with one of my own so I don't mess anything on yours up. I can also ask Delphy to double-check and make sure archived stuff retains the download/thanks count, but I'm pretty sure it -should- already as I know thanks can apply not only to download threads, but also FAQs, tutorials, and news articles and it does count those. It's possible it's bugged or doesn't work as intended. Will check it. :)

Thanks, HP. I don't want to give you more than you already have on your plate so I hope it's not something you put a lot of time into.

HystericalParoxysm
17th Oct 2013, 1:19 PM
joandsarah77 - I'm not sure where we'd put that sort of notification for best results, but we do want to do a "MTS features spotlight" thing regularly that shows up on the front page, because we have a lot of stuff that many people don't know about... including that! :)

Inge, that's almost certainly possible, yes, since we already do have a function for staff to do that to a download anyway - it still shows up to the creator themselves, and staff can view it, but it's invisible to others. Would just have to let creators toggle it on for themselves, which is probably not an issue since we don't really use it ourselves, um, much at all anymore.

nonamena - Well it'll be on my to-do list, anyway. I think whipping these guidelines into shape is slightly higher priority, but if it's bugged, we should fix it. :)

Honeywell
17th Oct 2013, 3:01 PM
We do totally get that some of the reasons you might've been CR'd for were silly, over-nitpicky, things that were not in the guidelines and should not have been enforced, there will be people who have rejections not because of any guidelines but because they requested the upload be rejected because they discovered it had issues, etc.... Basically, yes, there will be some people for whom those numbers probably should not apply. And I don't like that it's the case either - but I don't know of a way to get around that. Do you? Because if you can think of a way that would be fair, please do suggest it - we tried figuring out what it would be and couldn't, maybe ya'll would have a better idea?

You should go in and modify whatever information you have stored right now before they system goes live and correct any wrongs you know about so creator's who've had issues with the site won't feel penalized twice. Privately. I'm not talking about opening up a petition for everyone to have their old uploads reviewed or anything like that. I don't even think you should tell anyone you're doing it. But if you know of a creator who's had issues with the moderation and had the nerve to object and walk away it's not fair that they be screwed over yet again. And then send out a message welcoming people back and letting them know that they've qualified to bypass upload moderation like buggy suggested.

I feel very strongly about this. A year ago this would have been me if I hadn't finally had enough and refused to accept anymore changes required. I took a lot of abuse and thinly veiled insults in order to get that "pass or fail" exception set up. If I hadn't and I was still dealing with the BS and you rolled out this change and I was excluded? That might be the straw that broke the camels back for me and I might very well choose to leave just when things are getting better instead of stay for one more insult. If I had already washed my hands of this place I would not be coming back because of a promise to do better when I'd still be getting the shitty end of the stick.

Fixing wrongs for some people might not really be the fair thing to do when you consider other creators who aren't going to have that but it's the right thing to do. If you know of a wrong, you should fix it and generate some goodwill.

buggybooz
17th Oct 2013, 3:07 PM
ps Since guidelines are getting an overhaul and before I forget you may want to correct this in TS 2 Creator Guidelines: Meshes / Unique GUID and Script Numbers :

"Custom fireplaces should also be made with a scriptfile, but increasingly, they are created as a regular object and then put into the Buy Mode Appliances catalog. This is not the correct way of doing it. Numenor has instructions on how to use the Scriptorium on his thread. "

This is false. The scriptorium is only needed for fireplaces with the chimney stack. The fireplaces that appear in Buy Mode Appliances are based on Numenor's template without chimney. This IS the correct way of doing it.


Sorry for slightly changing topic but before anyone get's CRrrred for something that they shouldn't. Now go forth and make chimney's, the lot of you!

HystericalParoxysm
17th Oct 2013, 3:26 PM
Honeywell - I do get what you're saying and where you're coming from. And I wish we could do that, but... there's a few reasons why I don't think that's quite feasible - at least, not as things are right now.

The main one, for CRs... we don't have a record of what they were for, only when they were sent and what moderator sent them. So unless the creator still has the PM for the CR, we have no way of knowing what it was for and what the reasons were. There is also not currently a way to remove the record that a CR happened - it just shows up in one place and it's not an editable field, just a record. Delphy would have to code in a method of removing an individual CR, and it would have to be done by going to the specific thread and removing it manually per thread.

Rejects I -think- would be slightly easier to remove as, AFAIK, they are saved as threads rather than data on a thread. However, they're all saved in one big forum and right now there are.... 27473 reject records in there. They can be searched if we know of a specific case and I would have to double-check with Delphy if just deleting one of those threads would also change the creator's numbers (ETA: Yes, it would, so that is doable), but it would -have- to be on a case-by-case basis, rather than reviewing every one of them.

I am not -completely- opposed to the idea of an "appeals" forum where people who would consider coming back would be able to say, "Hey, you rejected X and Y of my uploads and if not for those my numbers would be fine, can you please take a look at those?" and an admin could weigh in and perhaps fix it? But... I am also really afraid of how much that would entail, in terms of need for time spent on each thing and having to write out what would essentially amount to a reworded rejection if the thing was actually rejected for legitimate reasons. I'm not saying that I don't see the merit in doing so... But I also would be even more afraid of it getting left un-done, people having to wait a long time for a reply, etc., because it really would need an admin to make the decision, and I know how little free time our admins have available right now.

So... I'm not saying no, but I am saying I have some concerns, and would need to think on it more, maybe find a way to make that work. Because that -does- sound like the most fair way to do it, and I -desperately- wish a day had more than 24 hours so we could do everything in exactly the right way. Sometimes it's not possible, but this might be worth doing if it would really make a difference to creators we have wronged.

ETA: I really don't mean to sound negative here, I agree that ideally they should be fixed if we can do so, I'm just afraid of how long that would take, or of not getting it done in a timely manner, or how to actually make it work, and how we would ensure that it was fair. I do still very much appreciate you taking the time to offer your input, and I do value your perspective. :)


buggybooz - Huh, okay. I'm not a TS2 object person really so I'll have to run that by whoever's doing objects but if that's on the guidelines and is incorrect, we should fix it. And we should also run the new guidelines by you guys before they go live. :) Thanks! :)

buggybooz
17th Oct 2013, 4:00 PM
Okay I may not have found it funny at the time but looking at it now it's definitely got comical value.

Dear buggybooz,

Thank you for submitting your thread 'Shakerlicious Curvy Cooker (http://www.modthesims.info/showthread.php?t=465597)' in the Appliances area.

Your thread is still in the moderation queue and has not yet been accepted or rejected. It has been reviewed by MTS staff and requires changes to comply with the MTS Creator Guidelines (http://www.modthesims.info/wiki.php?title=MTS2:Creator_Guidelines). You must edit your submission to make the required changes (listed below), or else the submission will be automatically rejected.

You have 72 hours from the time of this PM to make these necessary adjustments. Note: If you need more time, please let us know using the box on the thread.

Build/Object Recolours - Please Include In-Game Catalog Location &amp; Price
When uploading any of the following:

recolours of EA items
recolours of CC items
new meshes

please make sure to include the in-game name, location in the catalog and price of the item(s) you have recoloured/meshed so downloaders know where to look for your recolours/meshes when they are in the game.


General - Description Required
Please put some effort into writing up a few lines describing your download. A few nice statements which describe your download go a long way and make it seem like you care about what you've made. Your description should mention any technical things that people need to know about your download, and should describe in words what the item looks like. By describing your item in words, that gives people a better chance of finding it when they search the site (or search Google) for specific items.

Good Examples:
This is a mixed breed dog which resembles a cross between a beagle and a corgi. A nice short-haired breed perfect for small homes.
Here is a set of three elegant formal dresses with lace edging. They come in black, red, and cream.
This is a contemporary two-story, five-bedroom house with a big back yard, wrap-around porch, and a two car garage.

Bad Examples:
I don't know what to say. I'm tired. Look at the pictures.
My english is very bad. Plz enjoy!
This is my first upload!!!! Please be nice!!!

Spend time and effort in crafting the right description. When describing your upload please make sure that it's properly formatted, uses correct grammer and punctuation and is about your actual uploaded item.


Screenshots - Insufficient in-game screenshots
All uploads require in-game screenshots. This means a picture on a lot (preferred) or in Create a Sim.

You must include in-game screenshots of every item in your upload - please don't just screenshot one in-game and then show us the textures or swatches for the rest.

In-game does NOT mean:
Body Shop - with or without the background cut out. We do know what Body Shop looks like compared to in-game.
Family Loading Screens - These pics are small and have very little detail compared to that which you can get on an actual lot or in Create a Sim.
The texture/pic you have used in creating, uploaded instead of an in-game pic.
A SimPE preview of an object/recolour - with or without the background cut out.
An image taken in CTU or TSRW - with or without the background cut out. The lighting is different, we can tell.
A 3d render, or a picture taken from your 3d modeling program.
A photo of your computer's screen, taken with a digital camera.


Please see Screenshot Basics for more information on taking better screenshots that comply with MTS standards.


Technical - Incorrect Download Type (Maxis Recolour/New Mesh/New Mesh Recolour)
You have selected the wrong "Download Type" for this thread. Please correct it. The definitions below explain what each selection means:

Maxis Recolour: You have recoloured or retextured Maxis/EA objects, made walls/floors/ground cover, or used Body Shop to recolour or retexture an in-game mesh, skintone, eye colour, etc.

New Mesh: This upload contains a brand new 3D model that you made.

New Mesh Recolour: This upload is a recolour of a new mesh by somebody else - not one that came with the game or expansions, but a recolour/retexture of a new 3D model made by someone else.


Technical - Polygon Count is Missing, Too High, and/or Incorrect
All new mesh uploads on MTS must list the correct polygon count for each included mesh. For help finding and understanding your mesh's polygon count, please see the following articles:


Poly Counts for Creators (www.modthesims.info/wiki.php?title=Tiptorial:Poly_Counts_for_Creators) - How to find your poly count, and what is reasonable.
Game Help: Poly Counts (http://www.modthesims.info/wiki.php?title=Game_Help:Poly_Counts)

Please pay close attention to the parts that explain which poly counts are reasonable and which are too high for your type of item. Meshes with polygon counts that are too high will not be accepted. If your polygon count is too high and you need help lowering it, please see this article for help fixing it:

Tiptorial: Low-Poly 3D Modelling - How and Why (http://www.modthesims.info/showthread.php?t=289974)


Other reasons (these may be clarifications of above points, or additional reasons)
Could we also get a side or 3/4 angle view of the stove? The straight on shot doesn't show us which details are part of the mesh and which are painted on. Thanks! :)



Please read through all of the reasons above carefully! Correcting only one or two of them (when more exist) will result in delays to your upload and could possibly mean a rejection.

Performing the required changes is not an automatic guarantee that your submission will then be approved.

When you have made the changes, make sure to tick the box next to "I'm ready for this to be reviewed by a moderator" so we know to take a look at your upload again.

If you are confused as to why your upload was set to Changes Required, you may respond to the moderator who reviewed your upload in the first place by using the text input box located underneath this tickbox. Before responding, please make sure to review all of the 6 reasons listed above.

Click here (http://www.modthesims.info/download.php?p=3746203) to view your upload and edit it to comply with the notes above.


Thank you for uploading to MTS! We hope you can make the required changes and we would love to see your downloads on the front page once they are done!

Regards,
MTS Staff

This is a system generated PM and replies will not be read


So that's 6 CRs is it? I wasn't sure what I was supposed to do with this at the time and I wouldn't know what to do with it now either. Is it even possible to have more CR's?

Just to say please don't subject anyone to a message like that ever again even if they haven't ticked all the boxes:)

HystericalParoxysm
17th Oct 2013, 4:04 PM
Buggy - Oh, no no, that's not six. That's one. We're not counting CR -reasons- (since we do not actually have those saved anywhere), just "did we ask you to fix some stuff?" Yes? That's 1 CR. Did we have to send it back to you again and have you fix more stuff on the same upload? Yes? That's 2 CRs. Were there still things to fix on the same upload so we had to send it back to you again? That's 3 or more, etc... Basically you'd just be counting the number of Changes Required PMs you got. :)

There's no hard limit to the number of things you can have a Changes Required for, and as long as they're things that are fixable in a reasonable time frame, we would much rather do a CR than rejecting, for the creator's sake - then the creator can just fix it rather than having to reupload from scratch, and it is -much- less disheartening, especially for new creators, to be told they just need to fix some things and then it'll be ready to go. Some of the stuff there seems a bit excessive and things that, going ahead, would definitely be either just a suggested, "Hey maybe you could add a 3/4 shot cos it's a bit hard to tell what's texture and what's meshed on, just a though!" or put in the approval message ("FYI, ya forgot the in-game location, please add when you get a chance.")

buggybooz
17th Oct 2013, 4:16 PM
Oh ok. So 1 CR counts as 1 PM. Be good to clarify that somewhere as I'll probably not be the only person confused by that.

HystericalParoxysm
17th Oct 2013, 4:20 PM
I will go ahead and edit that in the giant novel post - I hadn't even considered someone might think of it that way, which is why it's so valuable to have your perspective. Thanks. :)

Annabel Lee
17th Oct 2013, 4:21 PM
It's great to see r/evolution in progress. :beer:

I think it would be helpful for new or inexperienced uploaders if there was a stickied walkthrough of a "mock" upload.
I know the upload wizard is designed to make uploading easier, but some really do learn better by example.
I also think a walkthrough may lessen chances of rejection.

Personally, years ago I had submitted a download that resulted in a rejection that was nothing less than (brutal) stinging.
To be honest, I felt that the commentary was rather rude.
Equally belittling, similar-type uploads by others were/are accepted here. The only difference that I could see was the uploader.
Granted, this did not keep me away from MTS. But I can easily see how situations like that could be the perverbial straw for some.
(And yes, I did upload that elsewhere and it was really well-received, so I felt some love after the royal butthurt.)

I've seen others' downloads that have received some unbelievably rude comments.
Off the top of my head, in 2 different downloads I commented only to get the comments back on track.
I felt the need to report one such offense because it was too much.
I imagine that behaviour like this would keep a person from submitting uploads. Who needs that shit?!

The thanks system is odd to me.
I feel like a sweaty sinner in church if I don't thank when I download.
Yet I see creators with an overwhelming number of downloads and far from equal, underwhelming number of thanks.
This may be problematic for some creators?

I realize the latter 2 issues are more downloader effects rather than site issues per se, but if they occur at the cost of losing uploaders, then they are site issues.

On a brighter note, I appreciate knowing that downloads from here aren't riddled with pay content.
And I appreciate the download required images, because I know what I see is what I'll get (e.g. angles/views, channels, etc.).
And I appreciate knowing that you guys will roll with it, whatever it takes, to keep moving forward. That's classy. :up:

HystericalParoxysm
17th Oct 2013, 4:28 PM
Annabel Lee - Yes, I can see where the wording in the reject you got (I think I can tell the one you mean, looking at the record) is a bit harsh. Tbh, I don't see anything wrong with the upload itself and it really should've been accepted. I don't think it was necessarily personal, just...... not the way it should have been done. I'm really sorry about that. :(

Rude comments on uploads should absolutely be reported so moderators can deal with them. It's usually preferrable to just report rather than comment as we usually deal with that kind of thing pretty quickly and just make it go away and knock the rude person upside the head, rather than have subsequent replies to remove (usually no head-knocking required) as well. Constructive criticism is fine, but yeah, sometimes people are real jerks, and that is not even a little bit okay.

RE: thanks... we have a little thing we're gonna do about that quite soon (before the major queue changes, even) so keep an eye out for that. Thanks are really important to some creators - we want to make sure they can get as many as they can.

Inge Jones
17th Oct 2013, 4:37 PM
Out of curiosity, why is all this coming up just now, when the problems have been known about for quite a long time years. Last time it was hinted there were going to be some changes to the pickiness/snippiness of the CR system, all that happened was some extra guidelines and complicated star system, but just as much allegedly unfair pickiness. I mean it's a good development but I wondered what triggered it now, rather than way back. Was it the new intake of moderators bringing a fresh set of insights?

Annabel Lee
17th Oct 2013, 4:41 PM
Well that was a quick response. Thank you.

Has MTS considered doing a survey?
If so, maybe offer one to [unregistered] users who are browsing as well as registered users.

HystericalParoxysm
17th Oct 2013, 4:44 PM
Inge - Well, the star system was intended as a way to reduce some of the subjective pickiness, but some of the way it was implemented didn't achieve all we wanted it to. Decent concept, execution really needs work.

But, um, tbh? It came up as an aside with a completely unrelated policy discussion (identifying whether or not a hair is pay on sim uploads), and then just sort of snowballed, because the exact line we draw on that rule is actually hard to understand -even for the upload moderators-, which led to discussion about how our rules are way too damn complicated, And me and Lee got to talking in chat about how we'd kinda just rather upload to Tumblr and how fucked up that is when we're staff here, and then there were threads and brainstorming and discussion and lots of FEELS. And with our discussions and the suggestions given here, well, that's how we ended up here.

Basically, blame Heaven. ;)

Annabel Lee - I suppose we could do that. That's kind of what this thread was intended as, though, because what we really wanted was specific comments and suggestions, not so much what I normally think of on a survey, "On a scale of 1 to 5, how do you rate your satisfaction with the colour of your nose hair?" type stuff. But that might be doable - what kind of things did you have in mind for such a survey?

Inge Jones
17th Oct 2013, 4:48 PM
And me and Lee got to talking in chat about how we'd kinda just rather upload to Tumblr and how fucked up that is when we're staff here

Lol lol lol!!! Yeah if the staff can't cope with their own system I guess it's time for a rethink :D

HystericalParoxysm
17th Oct 2013, 4:57 PM
Yes. It really should have been done looooong before that, really, but it was shockingly easy to get bogged down in rules and regulations and them to spiral out of control, and to know things needed changing but not realize that it needed a fundamental rethink, not just tweaks.

orangemittens
17th Oct 2013, 5:12 PM
I think there is a communication problem and a bit of a divide between what current uploaders to the site think and what potential uploaders to the site would care about.

The whole point is that if you have been through a system that leaves you absolutely not wanting to go through it again there is no way that you're going to upload 5 times in order to be free from it.

...If I had already washed my hands of this place I would not be coming back because of a promise to do better when I'd still be getting the shitty end of the stick.

I completely agree...especially now that I've had the chance to see a discussion of this grade-card like system with stars and check-boxes. As someone who has spent a lot of time here teaching new people how to create and who has posted (and supported) numerous highly used tutorials on creating here I can tell you the thought of subjecting my uploads to being graded like they're homework by someone who doesn't even have the knowledge I myself have is off-putting. That is made even more off-putting by the knowledge that I wouldn't have to be graded anymore now if I had only been treated fairly in the past. I can imagine that I am not the only creator who will agree with the points made by buggybooz and Honeywell.

We do totally get that some of the reasons you might've been CR'd for were silly, over-nitpicky, things that were not in the guidelines and should not have been enforced, there will be people who have rejections not because of any guidelines but because they requested the upload be rejected because they discovered it had issues, etc.... Basically, yes, there will be some people for whom those numbers probably should not apply....

...Would you prefer that we just throw out all old CRs/rejects and just say anyone who has 10+ uploads can bypass the queue? I suppose that is technically possible and not a beast to code... But it would mean that there would be quite a lot of creators who have consistently problematic uploads for very much valid, non-nitpicky-fiddly reasons who would bypass, and then have their uploads need to be put into the queue and then subsequently CR'd and would lose the bypass. Rather than being able to say that there are 464 uploaders now that can get it and quite a lot more that will after one or two more uploads that will go through a much more permissive system, I think this way (the hypothetical alternate old-CRs-and-rejects-don't-count way) would mean that there would be 700-something bypassing to start with... and then probably some less as things were placed manually into the queue and then CR'd.

I guess I can see where this way might have some validity and merit, but I can't help but thinking that there would be a lot more people who would get on the bypass and then go back on queue for a while that way, vs. the number with the system we're proposing that probably should be on bypass to start with and just need a couple more things uploaded before they'd be bypassing too.

...The main one, for CRs... we don't have a record of what they were for, only when they were sent and what moderator sent them. So unless the creator still has the PM for the CR, we have no way of knowing what it was for and what the reasons were.I guess I'm not seeing what the horror is in having more people get a bypass that perhaps shouldn't get one vs. once again screwing some people over who should have a bypass but aren't going to receive one with the new system you're planning. I also think if you allowed creators to choose *not* to bypass even if they had the number of uploads to do so you would find that some of the less experienced creators would voluntarily choose to go to the queue and this would reduce the number of people who get forced back into it with CR's. If you did it this way I'm sure it is the case that some people would receive a bypass, upload something that gets a CR for valid reasons, and then get redirected back to the queue where they more appropriately belong. I'm not a moderator here so it's hard for me to know if this would result in mass chaos or not...would it?

Is there any reason you can't do things this way for a specified period of time before instituting the more stringent rule? This would give people who were screwed in the past time to upload 5 new things so once the more stringent rule was in place they would be starting off on the same foot as everyone else...if their 5 new things hadn't received a CR they would keep their bypass.

HystericalParoxysm
17th Oct 2013, 5:22 PM
orangemittens - It's not a -horror- to allow people to bypass and then have it removed as that is possible to happen anyway. I think I'd just rather see more people earning the bypass as time goes on, rather than losing it. I'm afraid of how that would be disheartening to those creators. But I do also want to see some of the wrongs righted in some way for those creators who are already disheartened, and we do also have a "safety net" for problem uploads even if they do bypass, so there's no real -harm- in being more permissive, you are right. Re-learning all this stuff takes time, and I thank you for bearing with my reservations and resistance. So... yes, I think we will either do an initial exception (like you suggest) or an initial ask-to-have-certain-rejects-or-CRs-removed per creator, similar to Honeywell's suggestion. Or maybe some combination thereof. The main huge effort (on our part - lots of work) thing is the guidelines and rubrics changes (and as I mentioned upthread, I would like to make the rubrics texts public and show ya'll the guidelines before they go live) so exactly the execution of the changes is... relatively minimal, at least for people who are not named Delphy. ;)

orangemittens
17th Oct 2013, 5:37 PM
Okay I may not have found it funny at the time but looking at it now it's definitely got comical value.

So that's 6 CRs is it? I wasn't sure what I was supposed to do with this at the time and I wouldn't know what to do with it now either. Is it even possible to have more CR's?

Just to say please don't subject anyone to a message like that ever again even if they haven't ticked all the boxes:)I'm really sorry to have to say this but OMFG is that form horrible. I had no idea this is what the system had become. That form is the perfect illustration of what I was saying before though. It looks like a report card sent from an irritated employer to a slacking employee and not like a thank you note sent to someone who is trying to generously share something with the community. I understand that sometimes people might need some guidance but jeesh is that thing harsh. I cannot even imagine trying to wade through all that if I spoke English as a second language and as someone who speaks it well I would be really put off by the tone.

edited to add: I just saw your post HP. Thank you for considering all that I've said. :)

heaven
17th Oct 2013, 5:41 PM
I'm really sorry to have to say this but OMFG is that form horrible. I had no idea this is what the system had become. That form is the perfect illustration of what I was saying before though. It looks like a report card sent from an irritated employer to a slacking employee and not like a thank you note sent to someone who is trying to generously share something with the community. I understand that sometimes people might need some guidance but jeesh is that thing harsh. I cannot even imagine trying to wade through all that if I spoke English as a second language and as someone who speaks it well I would be really put off by the tone.

edited to add: I just saw your post HP. Thank you for considering all that I've said. :)

Yes, we completely agree that the old moderation evaluation was pretty bad. Which was why we decided to go to the rubric/star system. That CR that buggy decided to share with us is from before the rubrics were implemented. I believe that upload was approved almost 2 years ago now. :)

Now it's just a matter of taking the rubrics and streamlining them more and getting them to where they are "essential" guidelines only and removing those fiddly, nitpicky bits.

buggybooz
17th Oct 2013, 6:10 PM
Actually I think that particular upload got binned if I remember correctly because I wasn't going to go through all of that, I'm not that crazily masochistic. Leesester kindly pointed me back to the very same upload that had been CRrred or rejected 6 months before for unknown reasons and just reworked it from there ;)

That is in the past and I have posted it just to show how silly things became, obviously not just for me but for many others too. I very much appreciate this thread and the sentiment behind it. There are not many places where such a discussion could actually take place and the fact that it remains level headed with positive contributions is quite major.

Annabel Lee
17th Oct 2013, 6:17 PM
^ I clicked the love button.

Apologies for rambling backwards here.
Re. survey, I imagine the site is fully set to divine a plethora of helpful info. ;)

I just meant that a simple survey may help with any area you may be looking to amend.

A survey may show some handy info that may not be determined by logistics. For example:

On a 1-5 scale, rate your importance of factors regarding downloads.
1: ___, 2: ___, 3: ___, 4: ___, 5:___
On a scale of 1-5, rate your ease of _________ at this site.
Did you find a download that met your search criteria? Y/N
What other sites do you download from? (check any that apply) A, B, C, D, other
If other, what site?
(may be insightful to see what top responses have that MTS does not)
etc, etc, etc

The same type of questions can be applied towards uploading wih different wording, of course.

Plus, some people just like anonymity, so a survey could give them a voice, too.

In any event, brainstorming is good. Resolution from brainstorming is better. Putting it into action, now that's aces.
I fear for Delphy's social life. Sounds like he's in for some long nights with the sweet embrace of code.

CatherineTCJD
17th Oct 2013, 6:31 PM
:report: "On a scale of 1 to 5, how do you rate your satisfaction with the colour of your nose hair?"...
Well, since you asked ;) the grayer lighter it gets, the less noticeable it is; so, I guess I'd give it a 4. :heyhey:
I would think the information gleaned from this thread is more useful than a generic survey.


...I'm just butting in here to say (after reading this whole thread): Many have already voiced exactly what I was thinking, thank you for reading my mind and expressing myself for me.
I'm really pleased seeing opinions shared and heard and taken into consideration.
After these changes are tweaked and fully implemented, I think they will be beneficial to everyone - and the site as a whole. I'm looking forward to uploading more things! :Pint:

Thank you so much - mods, staff, HP, Delphy - for all that you do to keep MTS a growing community. As a dear "old lady" friend of mine in Kentucky, once said, "When yer green ya grow; when yer ripe you rot."
Thanks for keeping MTS "Green" :luff:

ETA - This was not written in response to ^^^ (we posted at the same time.) I still don't think we need a survey... but, I'll answer it if it's there.

HystericalParoxysm
17th Oct 2013, 6:51 PM
I fear for Delphy's social life. Sounds like he's in for some long nights with the sweet embrace of code.

Well, I know for a fact that his wife doesn't mind. ;)

A survey could be interesting, as long as it allows comments to be entered too. We might could do something like that. I'd rather do it after we get some of the initial major changes done though, to see what still needs fixing, but it's definitely something to keep in mind, because it's really important that we focus on user (creator, downloader, and just general member) satisfaction. :)

fullsheet
17th Oct 2013, 7:05 PM
It was disheartening to submit the changes required on my first mod and sent back the same letter stating the same changes needed to happen 4 times.
Please submit a photo 800x600 or larger photo. I did three times. Please give a better description that sells the mod better. I explained exactly
what it does (with a photo of what it does). Sorry I am not a salesman. I was excited to give something small back to the community for all the awesome
stuff I found here. That enthusiasm died pretty quick. The last submission I wrote on the bottom, "Decided to reject this mod myself because it is hosted
on my own site now." Now I have learned to do some simple script mods but, the thought of trying to submit them here gives me shivers.

Honestly it felt like nobody really looked at the changes I made and had sent the same canned form letter.

Consort
17th Oct 2013, 7:14 PM
Consort - You are right in that the bypass only applies to people who have 10+ approved uploads. However, the changes to the guidelines and method of moderation will apply to everyone - so if it meets the guidelines generally and has no major issues, it will be approved, and if there were tiny little things wrong, we'll just mention it in the approval message. Part of what makes MTS unique is that we do have moderation of uploads, and I don't think we want to get away from that entirely, but we do want to make it a -lot- easier to get your uploads on the site. The 10+ thing is for people who have proven that they do not really need a moderator looking over their shoulder before their stuff goes live, and I don't know of any way around that besides either greatly lowering the bar from 10 to 5? or something? (which I think would let too many people through whose creations have significant issues, and would put off downloaders from coming here - we don't want to alienate them either), or doing an individual manual evaluation of the general standards of each and every creator, which is a can of worms in itself, far more subjective.


Doesn't matter if its 5 10 or 50 required uploads, it's always a quantity thing.

Why don't you utilize the achievement system you already have in place. Different achievements credit a creator with a certain amount of units... let's call them... erm... gummybears. I'm just making up some numbers:
1st upload: 1 gummybear
5th upload: 5 gummybears
10x thanked: 3 gummybears
Wrote a tutorial: 4 gummybears
10k downloads: 3 gummybears

A user with n gummybears qualifies for the optional queue bypass.
This way the system would reward quality (measured in thanks and downloads) and contributions to the site alongside the quantity of uploads. You admins could fine tune the emphasis to your liking. You would make sure that those creators who receive the privilege of bypassing the queue have been around for a while - I can upload 10 celebrity pets in one night, but I probably need quite a while to get to 5k thanks and 10k downloads.

Inge Jones
17th Oct 2013, 7:26 PM
A user with n gummybears qualifies for the optional queue bypass.

I have a better idea. Let's skip the uploading and just get into the gummybears :)

HystericalParoxysm
17th Oct 2013, 7:28 PM
Consort - Except that one must still have a decent level of quality to have the uploads here - they've got to be at least pretty good. And you can't crank out something that's decent fast enough to spam like that, unless you have a backlog of stuff - in which case again, have to have been creating it for a while and if it's good and you can show it off well, then... great? Either way I think it shows a basic level of proficiency.

But just because someone writes a tutorial doesn't mean they actually make (or even share) content, or if they do, that they do it well. And there are a lot of areas that are not terribly popular with downloaders (lots, for example - there's tons of them and they often get the fewest thanks/downloads of anything, despite requiring a lot of skill to do well) which wouldn't get many downloads but are still nice stuff. While something like, say, a set of tee shirts from a popular fandom that, while nice and useful, are mostly just some logos added to an existing texture and not requiring a whole lot of time or effort, may get a -ton- of downloads just because people like Big Bang Theory or whatever.

I would really rather it be "Have you made a decent amount of nice stuff and have a good chunk of experience uploading and sharing it?" than "Is your work popular?" Because as long as it's good, we're happy to host stuff even if it's not popular, and I wouldn't want to encourage people to upload things just because they think they'd get a lot of downloads, but because they truly enjoy making a certain thing and sharing it.

Nysha
17th Oct 2013, 7:35 PM
I'd like to add that while I'm a huge fan of the achievements system and think it's awesome, linking it to queue bypass wouldn't be the right approach. Achievements, as you say, reward contribution, and I would love it if more of our creators would write tutorials, wiki, help people out in the create forums etc. However, queue bypass isn't meant to be a reward - it's just saying "Ok, you consistently upload good stuff, we don't need to check every upload of yours now", not "Aren't you a good little MTS citizen? Here, have a cookie!". Much as I'm disappointed when creators upload stuff and don't really get involved beyond that, I think that punishing them through the queue would be wildly inappropriate.

CatOfEvilGenius
17th Oct 2013, 7:44 PM
I would really rather it be "Have you made a decent amount of nice stuff and have a good chunk of experience uploading and sharing it?" than "Is your work popular?" Because as long as it's good, we're happy to host stuff even if it's not popular, and I wouldn't want to encourage people to upload things just because they think they'd get a lot of downloads, but because they truly enjoy making a certain thing and sharing it.
This, so much! This is what keeps me here.


Delphy Thanks for warmly embracing the code. ;)

reinmag
17th Oct 2013, 8:07 PM
I make a LOT of cc.
When I first started I considered coming here, but was told quietly to 'just make your own blog'.
Now with sims3updates, mysims3blog, and tumblr (as well as forums all over the simverse), I stopped considering MTS.

I do appreciate MTS though, as the place to learn about creating, to get help from other amazing veteran creators and get the tools we need. Perhaps it's time for rebranding?

HystericalParoxysm
17th Oct 2013, 8:11 PM
reinmag - So your suggestion is we... stop hosting custom content? I'm confused.

reinmag
17th Oct 2013, 8:14 PM
IMHO, would think reconsidering as your main focus, yes.
MTS is the place to come to learn and get help.

Just how I've seen things change over the last two years, that's. all.

HystericalParoxysm
17th Oct 2013, 8:18 PM
Download hosting is not meant to be the main focus, but it's not something we want to stop doing entirely. We do very much want to add focus to the learning part of it too, and have some ideas on how we want to accomplish that, after we can fix the more pressing issue of how to make the hosting part of it work well because we've been driving people away who might otherwise have been willing to stay, share info, teach, write tutorials, etc.

BlakeS5678
17th Oct 2013, 8:38 PM
@Consort I must admit, the amount of downloads you get, almost never accurately reflects how much effort you put into it. Is it fair? Absolutely not. Is it the truth? Yes. Take myself for example. The skin defaults I made took me days if not weeks to make, due to how the game codes things. I think it's just over 400 downloads, currently. The "Multiple Birth Tuning Mod" I made has over 10,000 downloads. How long did it take to make the mod? Well, lets just say loading up my computer in the morning took longer. I'm afraid, that's just the way things are, and yes, it sucks. But, what can you do? We can't hold downloaders captive and force them to download, or anything.

Inge Jones
17th Oct 2013, 8:47 PM
Download hosting is not meant to be the main focus, but it's not something we want to stop doing entirely. We do very much want to add focus to the learning part of it too, and have some ideas on how we want to accomplish that, after we can fix the more pressing issue of how to make the hosting part of it work well because we've been driving people away who might otherwise have been willing to stay, share info, teach, write tutorials, etc.

If you can assign an actual staff member or helper to the wiki, they could be on outreach to the rest of the community gathering links to tutorials and resources on other sites. Then people could still come here as a center to find all the learning materials - just several of them would be hosted offsite. That's how it used to work in the old days - everyone linked to everyone else so you could browse from resource to resource without worrying what actual server system they were sitting on. There is not a lot wrong with distributed resources since the world wide web was set up.

Also the current policy is when someone posts here asking about something - tool, mod, tutorial, on another site, they are directed to post on that other site instead. I know that is just showing respect to the creator or tool author, so I am not knocking it, but if you let them ask here anyway, it might push that creator or author to start visiting here more to check if people are talking about their stuff ;)

kithri
17th Oct 2013, 8:55 PM
I have a better idea. Let's skip the uploading and just get into the gummybears :)

Gummybears? Gummybears? I'm still waiting on the freakin' BACON that never materializes. Harumph.

murfee
17th Oct 2013, 8:58 PM
I think MTS is one of the best modding sites there is--if not THE best. There's not really much I think needs improving, honestly.

I kind of liked the old layout better, though, but it didn't take me too long to get used to the current one.

The wikis are fantastic, and the tutorials are very clear-cut--reading through them helped me a GREAT deal. And the forums are full of helpful people who now so much about practically everything--I always recommend my CC creator friends to MTS when they need help. :up:

I would love it if more of our creators would write tutorials, wiki, help people out in the create forums etc.

I agree--I wish so many more creators out there in the community at large were more willing/open to sharing ways they create/convert CC and make mods and actually explain what they do and how they do it. Especially when it comes to meshing--that's what most people would love to learn, I think.

Back to improving MTS, I DO wish there was someone at the Content Lists/Hair Galleries/etc to keep the CC lists updated regularly, though. I know we can all pitch in and add things on our own, but I do kinda wish someone was at the helm on a regular basis keeping checks.

On the Creator side, the submissions thing scared me away since Day 1, though, which is why I never uploaded here, cuz I know I suck and am a lazy just-enougher. :giggler: I do Iike it that there are uploading sites with laxer standards for creation/skill/abilities/patience/willpower, pfft!

But on the Downloader side, I LOVE that I can always come to MTS and know with 99.9% certainty that the cc I'm gonna download here went through the wringer and is of the highest quality. In all my years of downloading CC from MTS I NEVER had a single problem, which shows that the submissions team and cc creators are all really doing their jobs well. :gjob:

So I say if it ain't broke then don't fix it. :lol:

About the queue: I think a bypass is a great idea for more experienced/tried and tested MTS cc makers.

I know TSR catches a whooooooole lot of flak, but I do like the way they have things set up, where once the submissions panel determines that you're a more experienced creator who doesn't need to be held by the hand, you get to bypass their submissions panel as a Select Artist, and can approve your own work. BUT you can still leave uploads in the submission Pending queue for the panel to look over, if you feel you made something you're not too sure of, and want double-checked by the professionals--you can also send the panel messages about your upload if you want them to know something specific about it.

The TSR submission page also has the ability to save Uploads in the middle of the process, in case you need to keep working on your uploads later, or you need to leave your pc, or unplug the internet, or do something else. You can always come back later and keep working on your saved upload.

You can also (as a Select Artist), set a date for WHEN you want your cc published and available for download--be it a day/week/or even month from now. I do realize that MTS keeps faaaaaaaar better track of inactive creators here than TSR does (TSR actually DOESN'T keep track of inactive creators, unless they are SAs or FAs, and that's only to demote them), so having uploads set months in advance with the artists actually inactive that entire time might make feedback a bit of a problem, once the cc is actually newly published but the creator's long gone. :faceslap: :p

Still, just a little bit of food for thought to nibble on.

Ghost sdoj
17th Oct 2013, 9:07 PM
We do totally get that some of the reasons you might've been CR'd for were silly, over-nitpicky, things that were not in the guidelines and should not have been enforced, there will be people who have rejections not because of any guidelines but because they requested the upload be rejected because they discovered it had issues, etc.... Basically, yes, there will be some people for whom those numbers probably should not apply. And I don't like that it's the case either - but I don't know of a way to get around that. Do you? Because if you can think of a way that would be fair, please do suggest it - we tried figuring out what it would be and couldn't, maybe ya'll would have a better idea?

Well, you are already addressing the minor reasons for a CR by addressing them in a PM or moderator post, so they shouldn't get a CR for anything that isn't seriously broken. The biggest problem would be with rejections due to the uploader asking for the upload to just be deleted. If you built in a method where the requested deletions were treated the same as if they had gotten the thread approved and then just deleted the entire post, it would seem to solve that bit of unfairness, wouldn't it?

And reinmag, MTS has a bit of a split personality. Some people think of it as primarily a Download site, some people see it as a social site, and some people see it as a site to learn and get help. It actually does a pretty good job of being all 3, and they are apparently working on making the whole thing fairer. I'm glad that you are finding it a good place to learn and get help. But other people never look beyond the downloads, and there are still others who just chat with friends here. I'm actually quite impressed at how well one site manages to do the work of 3.

Consort
17th Oct 2013, 9:32 PM
@Consort I must admit, the amount of downloads you get, almost never accurately reflects how much effort you put into it. Is it fair? Absolutely not. Is it the truth? Yes. Take myself for example. The skin defaults I made took me days if not weeks to make, due to how the game codes things. I think it's just over 400 downloads, currently. The "Multiple Birth Tuning Mod" I made has over 10,000 downloads. How long did it take to make the mod? Well, lets just say loading up my computer in the morning took longer. I'm afraid, that's just the way things are, and yes, it sucks. But, what can you do? We can't hold downloaders captive and force them to download, or anything.

Oh, I'm not saying that popularity reflects effort in any way. I'm just criticizing the focus on number of uploads as the only criteria because I believe it's giving wrong incentives to creators - hence my suggestion of taking other things like popularity of uploads into account also. Of course gummibears could also be given for featured uploads or five-star descriptions. It would absolutely be up to the admins if and how they would like to weigh what creators do. If they regard a high number of uploads more important than popularity of a mod they just give more or less gummibears for this or that.

CatOfEvilGenius
17th Oct 2013, 9:34 PM
For me, MTS is absolutely both a learning and a download site. I would very much miss the downloads if MTS were to shift focus to mostly just learning, which I don't think they will.

Yes, there is high quality stuff on personal blogs and tumblrs. It's not really searchable. It's hard to keep track of updates. I probably don't even know about most of it, having been out of the loop for a while. I love that I can come to MTS after a year away, look for very specific things with filters, and see them in order of upload date. The thought of looking for great new stuff on a long list of personal sites after a year away just makes me feel defeated before I even begin because it's such a huge pain in the butt and so time consuming. Inge made great points about linking. That's how I manage to find what little personal blog stuff I do find. Someone links to it from MTS, or I follow a chain of links from personal sites. GoS used to be good about linking, back when we had GoS. The searching, ease of use, and lots of stuff in one place is something MTS (and to some extent, the old GoS site) offer that small boutique sites really don't.

edited to add:
Some of you may be wondering what's such a pain about checking boutique sites. I want to see all the cc I missed last year. I'm a completionist like that, but there's another reason. I make clothing meshes. I want to see what others have made so I don't needlessly duplicate effort. I want to see what others have made, and if they allow it, chop up and reuse parts of their meshes to save me some time. I want to use other folks clothing in my screen shots. For example, if I make some sweater separates, I want to show them with a wide variety of skirt and pants separates. (And I almost always give a link to others' stuff in my pics.) Sometimes, years later, if the stuff was from a personal site that got abandoned, the link is broken. If it had been on MTS, it would still work. Not arguing against personal sites, I'm really not. Just pointing out the pros and cons of a large site vs. small boutique sites, for my wants as a creator.

Should I post this in the downloader discussion thread instead?

Inge Jones
17th Oct 2013, 9:40 PM
Isn't that where the wiki content lists come into their own? Especially if they were given higher profile so people were encouraged to submit their own blog or site's content. On the other hand, Wiki editing is an minority taste, and maybe Delphy could come up with some sort of userfriendly submission form. Maybe even write a database for it? I was on the verge of doing so myself one time - based on the one I made for the FFFSS, but things moved on.

Maybe with the queue moderators having less to do in the future a couple of them could be assigned to going around and seeing what they can update the content lists with in the meantime. (and yes, delete non-working links too)

kithri
17th Oct 2013, 9:42 PM
For me, MTS is absolutely both a learning and a download site. I would very much miss the downloads if MTS were to shift focus to mostly just learning, which I don't think they will.

Yes, there is high quality stuff on personal blogs and tumblrs. It's not really searchable. It's hard to keep track of updates. I probably don't even know about most of it, having been out of the loop for a while. I love that I can come to MTS after a year away, look for very specific things with filters, and see them in order of upload date. The thought of looking for great new stuff on a long list of personal sites after a year away just makes me feel defeated before I even begin because it's such a huge pain in the butt and so time consuming. Inge made great points about linking. That's how I manage to find what little personal blog stuff I do find. Someone links to it from MTS, or I follow a chain of links from personal sites. GoS used to be good about linking, back when we had GoS. The searching, ease of use, and lots of stuff in one place is something MTS (and to some extent, the old GoS site) offer that small boutique sites really don't.

Should I post this in the downloader discussion thread instead?

There is a lot of high quality stuff on blogs and tumblrs, but it's so darn hard to find! I have such limited time to surf around these days (in grad school) and dig for simstuff that without links (from here or a few other sites I frequent) I would never find any of it.

murfee
17th Oct 2013, 9:46 PM
Isn't that where the wiki content lists come into their own? Especially if they were given higher profile so people were encouraged to submit their own blog or site's content. On the other hand, Wiki editing is an minority taste, and maybe Delphy could come up with some sort of userfriendly submission form. Maybe even write a database for it? I was on the verge of doing so myself one time - based on the one I made for the FFFSS, but things moved on.

Maybe with the queue moderators having less to do in the future a couple of them could be assigned to going around and seeing what they can update the content lists with in the meantime. (and yes, delete non-working links too)

They DO need a higher profile. I agree--I don't think, based on the traffic the WCIF gets daily, that too many people KNOW about the content lists. :blink: :lol:

CatherineTCJD
17th Oct 2013, 9:47 PM
For me, MTS is absolutely both a learning and a download site. I would very much miss the downloads if MTS were to shift focus to mostly just learning, which I don't think they will.
... I love that I can come to MTS after a year away, look for very specific things with filters, and see them in order of upload date... The searching, ease of use, and lots of stuff in one place is something MTS offer that small boutique sites really don't.
Cat - you keep taking the words right out of my mouth! :beer:

Inge Jones
17th Oct 2013, 9:53 PM
They DO need a higher profile. I agree--I don't think, based on the traffic the WCIF gets daily, that too many people KNOW about the content lists. :blink: :lol:

And it's absolutely a win/win situation because if someone like me adds my stuff to the content list, and then users here know about it, not only will it drive visitors to my site, but it will also establish MTS more firmly as first point of call, as people will come here as a central point to start looking for what they need.

CatOfEvilGenius
17th Oct 2013, 9:55 PM
Isn't that where the wiki content lists come into their own? Especially if they were given higher profile so people were encouraged to submit their own blog or site's content. On the other hand, Wiki editing is an minority taste, and maybe Delphy could come up with some sort of userfriendly submission form. Maybe even write a database for it? I was on the verge of doing so myself one time - based on the one I made for the FFFSS, but things moved on.

Maybe with the queue moderators having less to do in the future a couple of them could be assigned to going around and seeing what they can update the content lists with in the meantime. (and yes, delete non-working links too)

A good and interesting question.

I wonder if for lists and such to be comprehensive, they'd need to be largely automated, like bots that check rss feeds or hashtags or something. I suspect lots of personal site owners just don't want to do stuff like update lists, fill out submission forms, hashtag things with universal standard filter tags and such. That's probably one reason they have a personal site, less time to upload if you don't have to bother with all of that. Not criticizing folks for this, just observing.

If lists have to be personally updated by human list keepers, I wonder how much stuff will be missed, how searchable they will be, etc. I do think human managed lists are certainly better than nothing, so I'm totally all for this effort, it's just not quite all I want. Ok, enough grumping from me about how the whole sims internet doesn't have the MTS filters. ;) There are examples of very good human managed content lists, like the default replacements site (bookmark on my other machine, can't share it right now).

Inge Jones
17th Oct 2013, 10:02 PM
I think the main stumbling block is a) the technical skill of wiki editing and b) getting validated to editing it. People with blogs etc are very ready to submit their updates to ms3b, as they can do so in a language they know how to write - not wikiish. Seriously, they get scores of submissions a day from people who want their stuff brought to the attention of downloaders. MTS could be getting those submissions too, with a more user-friendly, and more well publicised, system.

Cnih
17th Oct 2013, 11:08 PM
I've felt that quality should be a priority. I've seen some creations that I believe are not quality but pass because the creator is known, while others have put in items that are high quality but don't get passed because of little reasons (not very known, maybe unintentional use of pay item).

I myself make sims, some logo tees and other cc items. I am known within the Simblr community for video game related CC. I highly believe that if a sim is based on a person (fictional or real) it should be DEAD ON. Not to state any sims directly...but they are not even close to their "original". That peeves me off a bit, seeing as I spend hours sometimes making sims (and even tried to upload one here) yet deemed unworthy even if the resemblance is pretty accurate.

there needs to be more involvement from the community--and I don't mean posts. There should be different leaders/heads per division. That way the responsibility doesn't just fall onto a few people for the entire category--different people for different subcategories. It weeds out quality and poor cc choices. It doesn't have to be like 100 people...but having so very few sifters doesn't help MtS.

I am willing to upload a good number of my CC here...I'd like to. I just felt so attacked for the few times I have tried to upload. I loved Modthesims...I'm willing to give a second chance and contribute

-Cnih

orangemittens
17th Oct 2013, 11:17 PM
For anyone who feels that they should be on bypass and for whatever reason they won't be, the easy answer is 'game' the new system and bust out 5 super simple dead easy yet perfect uploads. Spend 20 mins each making a 5 sets of pink chair recolors or whatever and spend more time and care making sure that the upload itself is technically perfect...

...Yes, you shouldn't *have* to do this, but it's actually a pretty simple fix...
This is just the kind of callous and tone deaf kind of thing that makes people want to walk away from this place and never return. I can't believe you, as a moderator here, really just posted this insensitive thing after all HP has been doing to try to rebuild bridges with the creator community.

And may I point out...MTS gains when creators post here...what may I ask does a creator gain from " making a 5 sets [sic] of pink chair recolors"? I have my own blog and I posted things here as pay back for the teaching I got from people like Wes Howe here. I had them rudely thrown in my face. Believe me...I'm not falling all over myself to upload things here again. If I didn't genuinely just like HP and several other of the mods here I would walk away right now after reading this shit.

Get it through your head...this place isn't some be all and end all everyone is dying to post at anymore...a quick peek in your downloads section should give you a fricking clue if nothing else does.

HystericalParoxysm
17th Oct 2013, 11:40 PM
Phae... what? That... what? No. Just... no. I have confidence enough in the staff and the creators who are sharing their really useful suggestions here that nobody will have to whip out a bunch of halfhearted stuff just to get past the system. We can do so much better than that. :( And we already have some good suggestions on methods that might achieve that. Maybe not so simply on our end, but in a much better way.

orangemittens
17th Oct 2013, 11:45 PM
Phae... what? That... what? No. Just... no. I have confidence enough in the staff and the creators who are sharing their really useful suggestions here that nobody will have to whip out a bunch of halfhearted stuff just to get past the system. We can do so much better than that. :( And we already have some good suggestions on methods that might achieve that. Maybe not so simply on our end, but in a much better way.You begin to see my point about how it feels dealing with the moderators here?

joandsarah77
18th Oct 2013, 12:03 AM
I have no idea how to whip out a recolour on anything. If I ever do I'll be pretty darn proud of it. I've done one object once-which i thought looked horrid-while using a tutorial and bugging the person who made the tutorial for help. I'd rather be constraint flooring a pergola or a roofing piece to be honest. However I don't think Phae meant that suggestion as badly as it's been taken, for some people coming out with small recolouring projects might be just the thing to get back into uploading here. I'm very thankful other people know how as I love downloading recolours.

BlakeS5678
18th Oct 2013, 12:09 AM
@Joandsarah Phae, pretty bluntly posted to whip something out in twenty minutes (which is pretty insulting to those who spend 5+ hours) then spend more time presenting it, and tricking the mods into accepting it. Therefore, you can bypass the system without doing any actual work that would benefit your creating skills, which completely ruins the whole point of the bypass system. I found the entire thought of that post to be pretty offensive and destructive to a site she's supposed to be volunteering for. If we can thank Phae for anything it should be offering the mindset of someone with intentions of harming MTS (a troll)

sionelle
18th Oct 2013, 12:23 AM
I'd like to make a suggestion that people who are saying things like "what we're all thinking" or making statements on behalf of "the creator community" consider rephrasing those comments. You're not speaking for me, certainly, and I think it's kind of presumptuous to make yourself into a spokesperson for the community at large, when your individual experiences and opinions may be very different than those of some of the rest of us.

CatOfEvilGenius
18th Oct 2013, 12:26 AM
I think the main stumbling block is a) the technical skill of wiki editing and b) getting validated to editing it. People with blogs etc are very ready to submit their updates to ms3b, as they can do so in a language they know how to write - not wikiish. Seriously, they get scores of submissions a day from people who want their stuff brought to the attention of downloaders. MTS could be getting those submissions too, with a more user-friendly, and more well publicised, system.

They do? Well, that's very heartening! :) I'd be just tickled if there were some central list with links to updates from the small boutiqey sites. And as someone pointed out earlier, I don't even know where such lists are kept on MTS. I vaguely recall we have some sort of "finds" section somewhere. I know where the WCIF is. That's about it. I need to poke around more and find existing lists before commenting too much on what could be improved. (I'll go check out this ms3b too...)

What would you envision a submission form for MTS would look like? Would the submitter be asked to click a few checkboxes for download category, or would they just need to give a plain English description and a picture? Would putting the submitted blurb in the right list, or list section, fall more on the human list keepers, an automated system, the submitter?

kithri
18th Oct 2013, 12:27 AM
@Joandsarah Phae, pretty bluntly posted to whip something out in twenty minutes (which is pretty insulting to those who spend 5+ hours) then spend more time presenting it, and tricking the mods into accepting it. Therefore, you can bypass the system without doing any actual work that would benefit your creating skills, which completely ruins the whole point of the bypass system. I found the entire thought of that post to be pretty offensive and destructive to a site she's supposed to be volunteering for. If we can thank Phae for anything it should be offering the mindset of someone with intentions of harming MTS (a troll)

I'm going to say what we're all thinking, I think I know exactly which mod has been causing issues in the queue.

I'm not thinking that. I'm just thinking that Phaenoh has a very active imagination and was probably trying to be helpful, rather than destroy MTS. :duck: :duck: :duck:

kithri
18th Oct 2013, 12:44 AM
I know TSR catches a whooooooole lot of flak, but I do like the way they have things set up, where once the submissions panel determines that you're a more experienced creator who doesn't need to be held by the hand, you get to bypass their submissions panel as a Select Artist, and can approve your own work. BUT you can still leave uploads in the submission Pending queue for the panel to look over, if you feel you made something you're not too sure of, and want double-checked by the professionals--you can also send the panel messages about your upload if you want them to know something specific about it.

Murfee, are you talking about featured artists here, having to submit to a panel?

CatherineTCJD
18th Oct 2013, 12:56 AM
I've known Phae for a looong time on here. I choose to give her the "benefit of the doubt" - what she said, though possible not presented in the best manner, is true.

If all your about is to 'bypass' the queue - you could do just as she suggests. And, if your items are less than satisfactory, wait for the people to expose you for the fraud you are. I don't think any creator-worth-their-salt would really want to do that at the expense of their quality/reputation. I understood Phae to be saying that if bypassing the queue was your main concern, then you are free to do just that (by gaming the system.)

I don't think she was advocating that as a process; rather offering that as a suggestion for those upset about not getting a "Fastpass." (Those who feel 'wronged' about having to go through the process.)

Phae also states she is burned out. Let's cut her some slack and believe she is looking out for the best well-fare of MTS2.

Consort
18th Oct 2013, 1:05 AM
This debate is getting WAY to emotional for my liking.
Criticism and disagreement should never be confused with disrespect and mistrust.

orangemittens
18th Oct 2013, 1:06 AM
I'm not thinking that. I'm just thinking that Phaenoh has a very active imagination and was probably trying to be helpful, rather than destroy MTS. :duck: :duck: :duck:What I'm thinking is that Phaenoh sort of illustrates the point HP made earlier although from a different angle.

"... just because someone writes a tutorial doesn't mean they actually make (or even share) content, or if they do, that they do it well.Just because someone has created something for the game doesn't make them tactful, helpful, or a very good moderator with an understanding of site goals either imo. Maybe it would be fruitful to cast the net outside the group who just make things in order to find moderators...jes sayin. It might also lessen the "oh poor me I have no time to create since I'm moderating" kind of thing we had to see in the latter part of her post.

While I disagree that we're all thinking this mod caused problems in the queue and, in fact, I *know* she wasn't responsible for my problems there, I do agree with much of what Blake said. I tried to upload an item here that it took me a month to make...yes, a month. Her suggestion that I just whip out "recolors" to fix a problem that wasn't my fault to begin with is insulting. Her suggestion that I hide the lack of effort I put into this project in order to deceive the queue moderators is just so wrong. Her suggestion also demonstrates a basic lack of knowledge of Sims 3 object making since Sims 3 has the CASt system and not recolors like Sims 2 has...I guess she has no help for us Sims 3 creators. Not a big surprise coming from a MTS mod sorry to say. The amount of real help the moderators here provide in the Sims 3 object creation section demonstrates not many of them know anything about making objects for Sims 3...or if they do they have better things to do then help others learn.

I don't think she was advocating that as a process; rather offering that as a suggestion for those upset about not getting a "Fastpass." (Those who feel 'wronged' about having to go through the process.)And for the record I'm not upset about not getting a Fastpass. If I'm upset it's because of how I was spoken to and treated. Put quotes around the word wronged if you want to belittle people. Having rules applied to you when others aren't subject to them is unfair...the last time I looked that means you were wronged.

Lunararc
18th Oct 2013, 1:21 AM
I think Phaenoh didn't mean to whip out recolors don't you remember when Droopsi and Margierytka got featured on recolored objects cause they put a lot of effort and spend a lot of time to create some of the best recolors on this site, also without the moderation queue/moderators this site wouldn't be the best site to offer high quality stuff for free. this is my opinion and thanks all :)

CatOfEvilGenius
18th Oct 2013, 1:27 AM
I'm not thinking that. I'm just thinking that Phaenoh has a very active imagination and was probably trying to be helpful, rather than destroy MTS. :duck: :duck: :duck:
I'm not thinking it either. Rather, I'm thinking singling out Phae or anyone for personal attacks isn't helpful.

I *know* she wasn't responsible for my problems there
Thank you, OM, for such tact. You have clearly described problems without going after any specific person in public.

As HP noted earlier, there are ways to deal with problems with mods that don't involve public accusations and name calling.

heaven
18th Oct 2013, 1:40 AM
Just because someone has created something for the game doesn't make them tactful, helpful, or a very good moderator with an understanding of site goals either imo. Maybe it would be fruitful to cast the net outside the group who just make things in order to find moderators...jes sayin. It might also lessen the "oh poor me I have no time to create since I'm moderating" kind of thing we had to see in the latter part of her post.

I'm not sure if you misread what HP was saying or took it out of context but I do want to point out that quote from her was specifically regarding Consort's "gummybear" plan for bypassing the queue and that having made a tutorial would earn you points towards receiving that fast pass. It had nothing to do with how moderators are selected or moderators in general.

Also, I'm getting confused by your discussion: you say MTS should look for moderators other than creators but not too long ago, you were complaining about having moderators who don't know how to create the thing they are moderating. We actually have moderators that come from all different aspects of this site. I was "hired" as a contest mod because I spent a lot of time in that area and had an interest in keeping it going. We actually have moderators who do other things than queue work and their input is taken into consideration with site goals just as much as the queue mods. We're all working to be as proficient as possible in each of the areas we help with as well as learning what we can about other sections so that we are able to assist if a mod is out sick or needs time off for whatever reason. I, personally, do my damnedest to be helpful wherever I am needed and put a lot into trying to be fair and consistent in my moderation as well as doing it in a timely manner. I don't believe I was around, or was still fairly new, when you had issues so I am largely unaware of the history here but I know we are trying our best to correct some of those wrongs on a site level, for everyone that has felt as you do. But I will say that it's hurtful to see some people come in here and attack the mods on a personal level when a lot of us, if not all, really have put a lot of ourselves into this site. Have we made mistakes? Sure. Have there been errors or inconsistencies? Absolutely. Has it been intentional? I can't say it for absolutely everyone who has ever been a moderator but, without a doubt it's most certainly NOT the norm.

orangemittens
18th Oct 2013, 1:44 AM
I'm not thinking it either. Rather, I'm thinking singling out Phae or anyone for personal attacks isn't helpful.


Thank you, OM, for such tact. You have clearly described problems without going after any specific person in public.

As HP noted earlier, there are ways to deal with problems with mods that don't involve public accusations and name calling.I know one of the moderators who caused the unfairness I dealt with. We spoke in creator issues. This moderator explained how they came to act in an unfair manner. I didn't agree with how that person handled things but I felt then and still do now that they were acting from a desire to do good. I came away from that feeling that this moderator is a good person in spite of the fact that I had to withdraw my upload.

My disagreements with how things were handled is not because I think the moderators are bad people. I simply think that sometimes with all good intentions bad things can happen. That's why I'm still here talking and that's why I still think this site is worth working on.

I'm not sure if you misread what HP was saying or took it out of context but I do want to point out that quote from her was specifically regarding Consort's "gummybear" plan for bypassing the queue and that having made a tutorial would earn you points towards receiving that fast pass. It had nothing to do with how moderators are selected or moderators in general.

Also, I'm getting confused by your discussion: you say MTS should look for moderators other than creators but not too long ago, you were complaining about having moderators who don't know how to create the thing they are moderating. We actually have moderators that come from all different aspects of this site. I was "hired" as a contest mod because I spent a lot of time in that area and had an interest in keeping it going. We actually have moderators who do other things than queue work and their input is taken into consideration with site goals just as much as the queue mods. We're all working to be as proficient as possible in each of the areas we help with as well as learning what we can about other sections so that we are able to assist if a mod is out sick or needs time off for whatever reason. I, personally, do my damnedest to be helpful wherever I am needed and put a lot into trying to be fair and consistent in my moderation as well as doing it in a timely manner. I don't believe I was around, or was still fairly new, when you had issues so I am largely unaware of the history here but I know we are trying our best to correct some of those wrongs on a site level, for everyone that has felt as you do. But I will say that it's hurtful to see some people come in here and attack the mods on a personal level when a lot of us, if not all, really have put a lot of ourselves into this site. Have we made mistakes? Sure. Have there been errors or inconsistencies? Absolutely. Has it been intentional? I can't say it for absolutely everyone who has ever been a moderator but, without a doubt it's most certainly NOT the norm.No I didn't misread. Perhaps how I've stated things is a little too confusing for you. What I'm saying is that building your staff only with people who create things may not end up giving you a staff with versatility. I think queue moderators definitely should have some clue about how to make things. But merely being a creator isn't sufficient to give someone the desire to help others in the forum. I see that you don't understand and that you're implying that I'm attacking a moderator on a personal level when I have not done that. You weren't around when this happened and it has nothing to do with you. It's confusing to me why you're wading in talking to me now tbh. Quite honestly between you and the other person who posted I'm getting kind of fed up with the whole MTS moderators piling on and closing ranks thing.

This was a thread asking for feedback. Feedback is given and then the moderators come along and act how these moderators act. Is it any wonder no one wants to deal with this?

And for any of the other moderators who want to jump all over me...take a look in the Wiki first and here in your own tutorials section. I help people learn how to make things for this game...anyone who asks for it. I am nice. Give me a fucking break for having the audacity to speak my mind over the shit I've taken here at this place.

CatherineTCJD
18th Oct 2013, 1:53 AM
This is just the kind of callous and tone deaf kind of thing that makes people want to walk away from this place and never return. I can't believe you, as a moderator here, really just posted this insensitive thing...
I *know* she wasn't responsible for my problems there...
Then, perhaps you shouldn't have jumped on her so hard?

And for the record I'm not upset about not getting a Fastpass. If I'm upset it's because of how I was spoken to and treated. Put quotes around the word wronged if you want to belittle people. Having rules applied to you when others aren't subject to them is unfair...the last time I looked that means you were wronged.
I didn't use quotes for the simple reason I wasn't trying to 'belittle' anyone. I totally agree with you that rules should be evenly distributed.

I also agree with Consort. I'm heading back to my game. For the record, I think the changes sound good for the most part. I'm pleased to be a member of this community. Ciao!

heaven
18th Oct 2013, 1:54 AM
I know one of the moderators who caused the unfairness I dealt with. We spoke in creator issues. This moderator explained how they came to act in an unfair manner. I didn't agree with how that person handled things but I felt then and still do now that they were acting from a desire to do good. I came away from that feeling that this moderator is a good person in spite of the fact that I had to withdraw my upload.

My disagreements with how things were handled is not because I think the moderators are bad people. I simply think that sometimes with all good intentions bad things can happen. That's why I'm still here talking and that's why I still think this site is worth working on.

I appreciate this sentiment. I wish everyone could realize this and not think each of us are some big, sinister, entity sitting up on a pedestal pointing our fingers down and trying to make your lives miserable.

BlakeS5678
18th Oct 2013, 2:09 AM
Here's all I'm going to say. I don't think any of the moderators are intentionally evil or abusive. However, I know of specific mods (which I will never name or single out) that are much more helpful and tactful than other mods. I refuse to blame specific people or person, but there is a serious issue with mod bias in the queue as it stands. I'm not going to lie, I have dealt with and seen inappropriate mod behavior both in and outside of the queue, but since I never reported any of it out of a very real fear of retaliation, I'm the one that has to put it in the past.

(A)
18th Oct 2013, 2:29 AM
I think if you are dead set on retroactively punishing people by throwing them in the "needs moderation" group - people that may or may not have been wrongly accused, there should be some sort of appeals system. If each time a queue mod wrongly harassed a creator in the past counts as a strike against their credibility in this new system, why not let the wrongly accused prove themselves? Prove themselves does not mean going through the brunt of being heavily moderated another 5 times because some a-hole nitpicked their last upload so much they gave up on this site and they are now branded incompetent by the new system, but posting a formal complaint with a copy of the PMs they were sent.

Why aren't the moderators that were harassing creators removed in the first place? I understand the reasoning behind making the queue moderators anonymous to the community at large, but that should not free them of all liability of their actions when they decide to be trolls under the mask of anonymity. These people(queue mods) behind the curtain are real people in the community with friends, enemies, grudges, subjective preferences, and in some cases are just not competent to be the judge of what they are asked to judge due to lack of knowledge in the subject matter. When you give people you don't know anonymity to judge their peers with zero accountability, you are just asking for unfairness. Anonymity from their real community identities is fine, give them all names and numbers like QueueModerator123 so that their can be some accountability when a complaint is filed. Even if it is handled behind the scenes and we never know who that person's community identity really is, there should be some accountability for their judgements.

And the whole thing about the 5 perfect uploads and you're golden may seem swell to people that plan on pooping one out every week, but that just isn't the case with all people. Like orangemittens said, some people like to give back to this site with a gift as thanks for the knowledge they learned. They may have their own site and/or just not have much time to do real modding. Someone that makes really nice mods but only does it every couple of months could end up in the queue for years if they don't dot every 'i' and cross every 't' of regulations that are likely to change between the time they make uploads.

I was around a lot more before the queue ever existed, and to be honest I didn't really see a problem then like there is now. If you want to require one clear screenshot of the CC fine, it is useful, but to be honest very few people will download something that they cannot see well or at all... it self-moderates. Unless disk space is the true concern, people aren't gonna download complete shit, so it is kinda not that important. Perhaps the queue does filter out "some" of the bad that needs reworking, but at what cost? What prompted the queue in the first place? Was there really a sewage floodgate that got breached in the last few years?

If you really want to protect the downloaders from downloading broken shite, give them a report option. If enough people say "this is NOT what was advertised" or "this crashes my game!", you can send a moderator to review the complaints mediate with the creator and if necessary take it down. Wrong ratio of a screenshot pixels is not going to harm the downloader, nor is an "attractive" catalog description in most cases. If someone photoshops their screenshot, that can be reported and if the creator is unwilling to provide an accurate representation, then you should take action of course.

As horrible as the CR that was sent to buggybooz posted in page 7 is, it is almost amusing. I think there should be a Modding Disasters - now in technicolor! (http://www.modthesims.info/showthread.php?t=362118) type of thread for these "Moderation Disasters".

BlakeS5678
18th Oct 2013, 2:47 AM
Why aren't the moderators that were harassing creators removed in the first place?

This. A thousand, million times this. I would really like some insight on this as well, and I think others may too.

CatOfEvilGenius
18th Oct 2013, 2:56 AM
I think if you are dead set on retroactively punishing people by throwing them in the "needs moderation" group - people that may or may not have been wrongly accused, there should be some sort of appeals system.
(snip)
And the whole thing about the 5 perfect uploads and you're golden may seem swell to people that plan on pooping one out every week, but that just isn't the case with all people.
(snip)

There's a lot of comments in the thread, so I don't blame anyone for not reading them all. HP posted that an appeals process is being considered. There's also Delphy's post explaining that you don't need 5 "perfect" uploads, you need 5 good uploads that each have 1 CR or less, if I recall.

No need to be derogatory towards creators who make something in a week. That can well mean seven evenings of several hours of work, and some people go on creative binges. I get some cc takes more time than other cc, for example, a newly meshed object with a custom BHAV and sound takes loads more time than a minor alpha edit of a clothing recolor. Doesn't mean that smaller, faster projects can't be high quality rather than "pooped out", although I do understand it puts creators of very time consuming stuff at a disadvantage if they want to get fast tracking quickly (regardless of any past bad moderation).

Almost everyone who has commented has said it is not swell at all that those who got badly moderated may need to do another 5 before being fast tracked. I've said I think fixing the old bad moderation would be ideal but not very practical, others also brought up fairness, all comments from mods not being stored, and such issues. Nevertheless there was talk of an appeals process.

edit: I don't understand the comment about being set on retroactively punishing people at all. Some people that should be in the fast track won't be because of moderation mistakes in the past. Nobody thinks this is a good thing, and nobody intends it as a punishment. It's an unfortunate thing, not site staff deliberately punishing people.

Consort
18th Oct 2013, 3:57 AM
If you really want to protect the downloaders from downloading broken shite, give them a report option. If enough people say "this is NOT what was advertised" or "this crashes my game!"

I suggested a review flag for comments in the sister thread here http://www.modthesims.info/showthread.php?p=4263122#post4263122

I agree with some things you say but accusations don't get us anywehere.

CatOfEvilGenius
18th Oct 2013, 5:45 AM
Creator Journals - view counts for individual entries

As a creator who documents her creation process in her journal, it interests me whether anyone else reads that and finds it interesting / useful / just wants to keep up with what I'm doing. I also post update notices there. Sometimes, folks leave comments, which are great fun to read, but others might be reading without commenting. There is a view count for the whole journal, but not individual entries. And that journal view count increments each time I click "next" or "previous" on my multipage journal. It doesn't tell me much, other than way more folks are looking than commenting. Or maybe it's mostly me looking at my own journal, I do that a lot. I should not be included in the view count.

This is not a big deal, not terribly important, and I won't even be upset if we never get individual journal entry view counts. However, if it were a simple thing to code, sometime after the more important stuff, I'd be quite, quite happy to see it.

(A)
18th Oct 2013, 7:16 AM
There's a lot of comments in the thread, so I don't blame anyone for not reading them all. HP posted that an appeals process is being considered. There's also Delphy's post explaining that you don't need 5 "perfect" uploads, you need 5 good uploads that each have 1 CR or less, if I recall.

I've read them all for the most part though I'll admit a small percentage of it was skimmed. I know it doesn't take 5 "Perfect" (with a capital P) uploads, just 5 in a row where you don't get a nitpicky jackass. One bad spin of the wheel and you get 2 undeserved CR's and you start at square one.


No need to be derogatory towards creators who make something in a week. That can well mean seven evenings of several hours of work, and some people go on creative binges. I get some cc takes more time than other cc, for example, a newly meshed object with a custom BHAV and sound takes loads more time than a minor alpha
edit of a clothing recolor. Doesn't mean that smaller, faster projects can't be high quality rather than "pooped out", although I do understand it puts creators of very time
consuming stuff at a disadvantage if they want to get fast tracking quickly (regardless of any past bad moderation).

I apologize if it came off that way. That was not the point that I was trying to make. It was more directed at Phaenoh's suggestion of pooping out five recolors to "game the system". A week of hard work or even the 20 minutes of effort(not doing fluff miniscule mods to "game the system") can produce wonderful results just the same as a year long masterpiece. The "pooped out" was strictly referring to the idea that creators should spew out pointless CC that met the guidelines for the sole purpose of circumventing the flawed system that made them not want to be here in the first place.



Almost everyone who has commented has said it is not swell at all that those who got badly moderated may need to do another 5 before being fast tracked. I've said I think fixing the old bad moderation would be ideal but not very practical, others also brought up fairness, all comments from mods not being stored, and such issues. Nevertheless there was talk of an appeals process.

If we are talking about the few creators that still have faith in the site and are willing to
come back if there is change and rights to the wrongs, i don't think it's impractical. It is of course impractical to have a computer system analyze the comments and screenshots and packages to determine fairness sure, but that is not at all what I am suggesting. The people that are going to be disputing discrepancies are going to be the people(hopefully not the majority) that were wronged and were hurt but still have hope for the site.


edit: I don't understand the comment about being set on retroactively punishing people at all. Some people that should be in the fast track won't be because of moderation mistakes in the past. Nobody thinks this is a good thing, and nobody intends it as a punishment. It's an unfortunate thing, not site staff deliberately punishing people.

No, this is not deliberate I know. But people that left because they have been wronged are not going to line up to prove that they are competent just to upload here. Many of them were more than competent and great creators. They have no incentive to prove their selves to a site that wronged them and is unwilling to right the wrong. It really just sends the wrong message to demand they send 5 more uploads before they are deemed worthy of being amongst the rest. It's like being mugged and the person that mugged you returns one day and says if you can win this hula hoop contest, I'll give you your money back and it's all good.

Perhaps the new system will limit the powers of the moderators that were being rude and unfair, but it doesn't solve the underlying problem, nor does it bring back any creators that have already been harassed. Either surgical justice, or just clean house and a bit more transparency in the whole process onward seems the most logical path to me.

And Consort, feel free to elaborate on your disagreements.

Inge Jones
18th Oct 2013, 7:32 AM
I vaguely recall we have some sort of "finds" section somewhere. Unfortunately it appears to be non-functioning. Both Lee and I tried to submit something Nona made, and it never appeared on the moderation queue to appear in the Finds. That could explain why nothing has appeared there in two months.

What would you envision a submission form for MTS would look like? Would the submitter be asked to click a few checkboxes for download category, or would they just need to give a plain English description and a picture? Would putting the submitted blurb in the right list, or list section, fall more on the human list keepers, an automated system, the submitter?

That would depend on how the display was going to be. To submit to the current Wiki I guess it would be Categories (an item can appear in more than one section as it is now), Name/Description combo, and hyperlink. After submission, script converts to wikiish and inserts in appropriate sections.

Idealy there would be a purpose built searchable database, where each submitter has access to their own entry/ies to update them. Suggested fields: Creator name; Item name; Item description; link to download thread; web page or wherever the item offered; item last modified; *entry* last accessed by entry owner (gives database admins hint about which entries may need checking for death; and categories/keywords for filtering in user searches.

HystericalParoxysm
18th Oct 2013, 8:52 AM
I'd like to clarify a few things, and try to get us a little bit back on track. I just woke up and was up until 1 last night trying to keep up on this thread too, so please bear with me as I may phrase things sub-optimally.

"Gaming the system", etc.

The plan is not - and never was - to have people make and upload a bunch of mediocre stuff just to get past the bypass if they felt they deserved it but didn't get it. The original plan was that those people would just keep creating with their already high standard, whatever stuff they love to make, and would receive the bypass in time when their numbers improved. We've discussed some good workarounds for that, in the form of either softening the initial bypass numbers somehow (so those who have old CRs/rejects under the tighter guidelines will be on roughly equal footing with those who come along later under the looser ones), or being able to remove individual CRs/rejects if they are brought to our attention by the creator. We want to work toward a system that works for everyone, and is fair toward everyone, including those we have treated poorly.

Yes, under the new system, you could do smaller sets or single items that would be a bit quicker to create than large sets, and that's fine, but as I said to Consort upthread - if you're cranking stuff out at a high rate, it is likely no longer quality, and it will show in the work and would not be hosted here. Not every item has to be a huge amazing set of perfect quality, but it does have to be pretty good stuff.

We have some good options we're looking at, thanks to the suggestions given here, and those options are far more fair and agreeable than people just making a bunch of stuff to get past the queue. Maybe not perfect, but we will do our best with the options available to us, and creators deserve to have us do our best by them, as we have not in the past and it is important that we show with our actions and words going forward that we are willing to make those changes for them - not for us, for them.

I don't -ever- want creators to feel like they have to just make a bunch of stuff just to... make stuff. Creation is a process of care and passion and skill, and if you're not doing it because you have a picture in your mind of what you want and you are motivated to see it through, you will eventually just give up and go do something that you -do- love. I am constantly amazed by the creativity that comes out of this community. We are artists, and this is not an assembly line. I have no interest in making creators jump through silly hoops, and the new system will be hoop-free and focused on logic, fairness, and ease of use - period.


Transparency

Transparency in the process is VERY important going forward. The creator guidelines will be available to view before they go live (and if you want to look at one of the new ones right now to get an idea of the direction we're going in, you can look here: TS2 Sim Guidelines (Sandbox) (http://www.modthesims.info/wiki.php?title=MTS2:Creator_Guidelines/Sims/Sandbox) and compare to the current guidelines for that area: TS2 Sim Guidelines (Current) (http://www.modthesims.info/wiki.php?title=MTS2:Creator_Guidelines/Sims)), I want to make the rubric texts public so that we are not the only ones who can point out when there's something in the rubrics that's not in the guidelines or vice versa. I want to make changes like the new bypass system only after running it by the people it affects, as we are doing now, and I intend to do more "Hey, here's this thing we're considering, please poke holes in it," type stuff in future, so that it is not just moderators working for moderators/"the site" but moderators serving the people who use the site besides ourselves. I have also tried to be honest with you guys about my own feelings here, how this stuff arose, etc., and will continue to do so. If we are doing things right, there is no need to hide the way it's done, and if we're doing it wrong, we need to apologize and fix it.


Moderation and moderators

Moderator behavior, treatment of users, hiring moderators, reprimanding moderators for bad behavior, etc.... This has been brought up and I feel the need to address it because again, transparency ftw. Moderators are expected to conduct themselves courteously, to treat users with care and respect, and to be as gentle as possible in their handling of issues. It is in our moderator guide that every new moderator is to read before they do -anything- with their new powers. We also have a guide on diplomacy - not just general "be nice and don't be a dick" stuff, but specifics on how to try to frame things so that it is taken well, that your words are heard but that you are not discouraging, etc... And we've also had periodic general reminders about attitudes. This has not stopped all problems with the way moderators address the users, but I think it has improved it somewhat.

And part of this change, I think, is going to be reviewing those guides, making them more prominent, starting a new internal discussion on those issues, and making it very clear that, going forward, being short or snippy with someone because they are the 10th person you've dealt with that day who didn't read the guidelines at all is -not okay at all-. It's also going to be making sure that anyone who is working on the moderation queue, Creator Issues, or in Creator Feedback/commenting on uploads with their "moderator hat" on both understands the spirit of these changes, and is able to conduct themselves with gentleness and tact.

Because unlike the old system that was pretty much 99% tickboxes/radio buttons, the new system is going to require a lot more personal messages, and that those -have- to be written in a way that is respectful, gentle, guides creators without insulting them, and (as much as is possible when you are still in the position of telling someone that the thing they worked hard on is not good enough) not doesn't piss people off or make them feel unwanted and unwelcome here. This may be tough for some moderators, not because they are rude people, not knowledgeable, or that their heart is not in the right place... but because it is very very difficult to learn the skill of telling someone they don't want to hear in a way that they will actually hear it, absorb it, and take it under consideration without being hurt or angered by it.

Also... I think perhaps it is easy to underestimate the difficulty of finding good moderators who are great in their area of expertise, have been around a while and are frequent and regular visitors to MTS on a near-daily basis, have ample free time, are fluent in English, have a vision and attitude that is generally in line with MTS's, have a personality that means they can work well with the other existing moderators, always treat everyone with tact and skill and infinite patience, will actually do the work rather than just get the green badge and then not show up for weeks at a time, not get too burnt out, put aside personal taste and feelings and try to act objectively, take directions and hear alternate opinions and suggestions, always express themselves with tact and skill in wording things just so, are willing to also work on site projects like rewriting guidelines and whatnot, act like professionals despite not being professionals, are willing to work as an unpaid volunteer to do something that does take up a not-insignificant amount of time and effort... and also are actually willing to be a moderator (because of course, not everyone we ask actually wants the job!).

I am honestly amazed that we have found as many great people as we have, with the bar that we've set for ourselves. But it also means that not every moderator is 100% perfect in every one of those areas all the time. We are human, and this is still a hobby for all of us - admins included. For some, it takes time to learn how to do some of the things expected of them (especially the tact and diplomacy stuff), and new moderators often hit some bumps in the road or unintentionally make messes that have to be cleaned up. And unfortunately some of those messes are the feelings of creators. I truly do not believe there have been many times that moderators have intentionally said something unkind, rude, or hurtful to a user - I think the mods do almost always have their hearts in the right place.

But sometimes, yes, we do fuck up. We say something wrong, or phrase it very bluntly, we have nitpicked, added unnecessary rules, enforced unwritten rules, or made a mistake in handling an upload. And then we have to deal with it - and that hasn't always been done right either. An admin has to know about the problem in the first place - and we cannot look over every single word every moderator says on the site, so we have to rely on spot checks and people bringing things to our attention. We have to try to soothe ruffled feathers and get the situation back under control - often a difficult task when, say, an upload may have been rejected for a combination of completely valid reasons along with a couple problematic ones (or entirely valid reasons, phrased poorly), offer apologies when appropriate, and try to move forward. And we haven't always done this right either.

Handling of moderators by admins has to be done with pretty much the same amount of care that a moderator must use with handling creators. Because the moderators are just volunteers, doing a very hard job for little reward, and even when one of the messes up, it's not like reprimanding an employee who counts on you for a paycheck. Good moderators are -hard- to find, good moderators that stick around for years even more so. We have to strike a very careful balance between demanding excellence from the moderators vs. making sure they don't feel that their contribution is not valued and not good enough.

I know it can be easy to say as an outsider, "That moderator was really rude and hurt my feelings, and anyone who talks like that to a user should not be a moderator or not dealing with users directly," but we have to balance that moderator's overall contributions to the site (which may be HUGE, spanning years, consisting of literally weeks or even months of that person's life spent on helping the site) against the improper handling of a handful of things. I think we have improved at that immensely in recent years, but it is still a very difficult balancing act.

Please know I am not offering any of the above as an -excuse- for things being handled poorly in moderation (and I also don't want any moderators reading this to feel it is a criticism of the jobs you do - I know how hard it is to show up and keep working on stuff day in and day out for very little reward), merely as an explanation as -why- it is so difficult to do well all the time. I think going forward we do need to look at further diplomacy training (because we are going to be doing so many personal messages - the opportunity for mess-ups will increase so the skills must increase as well), make sure that everyone is fully on-board with not just the letter of the new rules and system but also the spirit and overall goal of it, and increase the amount of admin oversight and involvement in the day-to-day activities so that if problems do come up, we can deal with them swiftly and not let hurt feelings simmer.



Again, really really sorry for the novel - one of the skills I still need to learn is not being so damn long-winded. ;)

Klaartje
18th Oct 2013, 9:13 AM
Because the moderators are just volunteers, doing a very hard job for little reward,
Over the course of this thread, I have been a little shocked to read the personal accounts of (queue) moderators about the strain it puts on them. Maybe a bit naive on my part, but it's good to hear a bit about their experience as well. At the end of the day, all the different MTS-users, whether they are downloaders, creators or moderators all need each other for the site to be as it is. So I am wondering what we, as creators, can do to make things a little easier or more positive for moderators. Sure, this starts with reading the guidelines properly and actually including all the pictures that are asked for (I may or may not be guilty of this myself ;) ), but what else can be done? I've read in a thread somewhere, sometime ago, the suggestion of including a box at the end of the upload thread, where the creator can include comments for the moderator. I am one of those creators that likes to look at download count/comments/thanks when I'm not having a good day, because it reminds me that at least a 100 other people thought my lots were good enough. I've received some helpful comments from a mod on my latest lot, but since it was approved immediately, I don't know how to say to this particular mod: "hey, those comments were very helpful, thank you, I might try that out sometime." (So, hopefully this particular moderator is reading this thread :D )

buggybooz
18th Oct 2013, 9:21 AM
Spend 20 mins each making a 5 sets of pink chair recolors or whatever and spend more time and care making sure that the upload itself is technically perfect.

And if you are the type of creator who only ever makes super detailed awesome sets and uploads few and far between? Then doing this will give you an excuse to branch out and MTS is always happy to see creators contributing in new ways.


If I posted exactly what I think it would be alone the lines of "WTF, who the frig do you think you are and how dare you tell anyone what they should be posting. It is insulting not only to creators but to downloaders alike. Advocating that a creator who puts alot of thought into what they upload should post 5 things made in 20 minutes but "technically" passing your benchmark to get through a queue, seriously? That is precisely the kind of attitude that is SO effed up and just insulting!"

Instead of what just went through my mind I'll say this:

Food for thought: If you are going to post on behalf of MTS make sure you have actually read the discussion so far or start by saying this is only your personal point of view and in no way reflects MTS policies as a whole. This thread has been so informative with good discussion going on and suddenly there is this post that needs serious damage control.

One more suggestion. I actually don't have a problem going through a quick moderation BUT I would want to be absolutely assured that I will not be moderated by someone with that moderator's attitude, no way José.

EDITED to add: It took me awhile to write this and posts have been written during so if any of what I have said has been addressed please ignore or tick it off the list.

Karen Lorraine
18th Oct 2013, 9:22 AM
I too have often wished there was a box in which to send the Mod a comment or note in the actual wizard. But a way of expressing thanks after the CC has been created and uploaded would be great too as I've often wanted to say thank you to the Mod for a comment they've made or suggested.

HP: Thank you for all your explanations, must've been hard reading all that this morning.

HystericalParoxysm
18th Oct 2013, 9:26 AM
Klaartje68 - Honestly? I think the thing that makes the biggest difference to moderator burnout is just those occasional nice messages saying thank you for helping, when someone has done a nice job at doing so. We don't get them often (and we actually have a little place in the moderator forum to share the nice messages we see so we can get warm fuzzies from reading stuff said to other mods too), but one really sweet person taking the time to tell a moderator how they appreciated the help is often enough to erase or at least soften the effects of quite a lot of the burnout, because at least it's obvious that your efforts are helping someone. I -still- have some saved PMs from years and years ago when I was a regular moderator.

And I think the queue bypass will also help a lot, because quite a lot of uploads will not have to be evaluated on everything with the rubrics, just given a quick look-over to make sure it's okay when browsing the downloads section. Lessening the load, both in just overall amount of stuff to moderate and the amount of stuff we need to moderate -for- will be a big help. I'm not sure how that will balance against the need to actually type out specific messages to users rather than just clicking a button to give a pre-written generic message, but perhaps feeling more hands-on will help too, so moderators feel like they're truly helping individuals rather than just sitting behind a control panel pushing buttons.

And also I am trying much more to remember to say thank you and that I appreciate the moderators' help when they do something. I know they're not doing it for my approval... and I have to be careful as I'm a parent to two small children and it can be kinda hard to not use the same tone I use with my kids to praise them for using the potty just because I'm so used to doing that all day... But I want the moderators to know their work is appreciated by the admins too. :)

A box that sends a comment to the moderators (or even just posts a comment to a thread in the mod forum referencing the thread - since sometimes moderation of a particular upload is somewhat of a collaborative effort) would be useful. Not sure exactly how it could be implemented, but I think we could probably figure something out for that.

Klaartje
18th Oct 2013, 9:38 AM
HP - thanks for the quick reply :) So, the best place to say thanks would be the creator issues forum? I didn't think of taking it there before :)

HystericalParoxysm
18th Oct 2013, 9:40 AM
Creator Issues would work fine for now, sure. Even if the person who moderated your upload isn't the one to see it initially, whoever does can always poke whoever handled your upload to show them. :)

Nouk
18th Oct 2013, 9:41 AM
TLDR;
I've been reading trough this thread and have thought about some things. In the end all I did was come back to the same question originally asked, some musings, plus an obvious conclusion to look at what successful formulas have to offer, and if it's adoptable and/or applicable, and what the implications are.


Warning: all over the place.

As long as the ease of uploading to other sites for free and with much less hassle is available, any site that uses a system that checks downloads before approval will be less attractive for creators. It's just how it is. But you can't simply throw quality control out of the window, and having users mass-test new uploads without a minimum of review by the site mods will just cause all sorts of another type of drama. (Or will it?) Seems like you're damned if you do, damned if you don't.

If you really insist on pleasing as many people as possible AND having a good quality control (ofcourse! I'd sure hope so) maybe we should simply look more at how the dynamics for sites like Tumblr work in relation to Sims downloads, usability, ease of use, quality control and how creators are influenced to do better, popularity and what that means for quality, exposure, etc.

- How does the community/do the users weed out bad quality downloads?
- How does communication between creators and those interested/downloaders go?
- Is it truly self-regulated, and how?
- Is it really open to everyone, does everyone get a chance at exposure?
- How do they 'protect' themselves from trolling/drama?
- What are the implications?
- Since Tumblr (or other social media, blog, whatever host is liked) isn't a specific Sims fan site, and is not even financed or hosted in the same ways, what will the repercussions of adopting similar ways of treating downloads be?
- Which parts of what makes these sites so usable and easy are adoptable, and will the self regulation be a sufficient quality control?

And then I end up with the solution Inge brought on (if I remember correctly, probably other people too) where the community will end up deciding what's good based on what they like (subjective and wildly variant) and what works well for them(no-one wants an unusable piece of crap in their game). At the risk of having tons of low quality stuff available as well, BUT. The community is ultimately responsible for deciding what's good and what's not, and not just moderators.

Moderators who are just other people/users/creators in a position of power, which gives this system people dislike a face, no matter how anonymous it is, which opens them up to criticism more easily, deserved or not.
Moderators who will never completely match the way they rate individual downloads no mater how much they'd love to. The system will never be 100% objective. Resulting in a really repetitive job with results that will always have a negative effect somewhere for someone, no matter what.
So - not a fun job, impossible to do 100% objectively even if you wanted to, plus you carry the brunt of the complaints the system causes because that's the result of that job. Woo-freaking-hooooo!

I realize this post isn't wildly helpful, it's more of a gathering of my thoughts on this subject after reading. But realizing that even the newest proposed changes carry their own implications that are very serious...

I'm starting to remember back when there was no or very little post approval/deletion needed, almost every upload started with [TESTERS WANTED], the site wasn't judged on what was 'allowed' to be on there because it was as simple as 'you get downloads or you don't'.
I'm really wondering if it's ever possible to get that back with the community being what it is right now. They simply have higher standards and sometimes can't even stand 'lower quality download' to even be allowed to exist on the same site (I'm guilty of that too, with the flood-fill panties in 500 colors-jokes, wood- or even minced-meat-textured bodyshop items, etc.). You can change the approach of the site, but not much the approach of the users.

So in the end, taking another look at how other sites are used succesfully, upsides, downsides. Give the mods a break and have them only do after-the-fact moderation after a download gets flagged, using the guidelines to make it as little personal as possible? Risky. But reading how even the new system would still upset users, creators and mods alike, maybe some hybrid is possible.